"The Eric Carr Story"

[Brainsaw]

ANKH had mentioned this book The Eric Carr Story by Greg Prato in another read.

Granted, its not the greatest book, but it does have some good interviews about Eric but also about Vinnie and his time with with KISS and the VVI days etc.

Most of the people who talk about Vinnie only have good things to say. Although, I cringe at Adam Mitchell hating the first Invasion cd etc.

Also, you'll read about what Eric Carr had to endure. The wanting Eric to resign from the band. The insurance problems and other things. Gary does end up saying alot of the same things Vinnie noticed about what was going down during that time and one of the reasons Vinnie said he left during the Revenge sessions.

Poor Eric is there wondering if there's an opening in Whitesnake or other bands...

ANKH was right--the book is worth checking out.




EXCERPT:

BOBBY ROCK: One of the things that I like to say about that [when the Vinnie Vincent Invasion broke up after their second album, 1988's All Systems Go] is it's kind of like that old parable about the six blind men standing around an elephant and asked to hold out their hand, touch the elephant, and describe what an elephant looks like. So the guy by the trunk says, "An elephant is long and thick like a snake." The guy by the tusks says, "An elephant is sharp and smooth like a spear." The man who stands by the side says, "An elephant is big and thick like a wall." And the man who stands by the legs says, "An elephant is like a tree trunk." The point being is that whatever their limited vantage point was or their particular bias based on where they were standing, that's what their recollection was going to be of an elephant. The fact is, there really is no set answer. If you talk to me, Mark, Vinnie, or Dana, we're all going to have our own perspective on what went down and what the issues were. Because there were many issues.

At that point, it was three years of serious dysfunction, between band members and management and the record label and things that were going on internally with the band. Really, a lot of deep issues going on. So the short answer, from where I was sitting, it was accumulative dysfunction of several years, led to the inevitable. Where Vinnie saw things one way and thought one thing was going on, and maybe I saw things a different way than how everybody else saw things going on. It was just such a mess at that point. All you could really chalk it up to was an accumulation of all of this dysfunction over three years eventually led to us finally having to throw the towel in.

I would say, yeah, Vinnie is difficult to work with to a certain degree. But I think he's been demonized quite a bit. There was a lot about what he did and how he did it that was very off-putting. In my opinion, I think he lacked a certain type of diplomacy that a great producer will have. The key to being a great producer—or for that matter, a great band leader—I think if you're a leader, your objective is to get the great performances out of your guys. To create an environment where everybody feels encouraged, and you could come out and speak your mind if something's not working or what you need, but there's a certain way to do it. Like Dana I thought had the knack for that, if he was expressing something in the studio. There is a certain way that people can put things to you. Not that they have to wear kid gloves, but there's just a certain way where you keep an encouraged environment happening while still getting done what you have to do. And I don't think Vinnie had that "filter." I think he would just blurt out or say whatever he felt, no matter how cutting it might be. A lot of times, that could get you overly self-conscious about things or worsen the problem that's happening. But, again, I don't think he did that intentionally. I think it was just part of the characteristics of his personality. My experience with him is he was never intentionally a "bad person." He's definitely an eccentric character, there's no question about that. And for the most part, he and I got along really well. I never had any real issues with him as a person. I think he inherently was a nice guy. He was a good father. Him as a person, I always liked. I just thought that, in the professional realm, Vinnie needed the right kind of manager, or if George Sewitt was the right kind of manager, he really needed to place more trust in him. I thought Vinnie was the kind of artist that really needs to be managed, because he's such the proverbial "artist." And he wasn't, and as a result, there was this "loose canon thing" that would go down sometimes.

Prato, Greg The Eric Carr Story

[poserboy71]

I believe that most of us share this viewpoint of Vinnie.

[Brainsaw]

MICHAEL JAMES JACKSON: Vinnie had become more "Kiss-torized." He had become more adapted to becoming a member of Kiss and the idea of being able to alter their style musically, which is maybe what he thought he was going to bring to the table at that point, was pretty much out the window. He had adapted himself to the fact that, "This was a Kiss record" and "This was a Kiss career," and he was going to have to modify himself to fit that mold. Which he did.

It was the same procedure [recording Lick It Up], cutting the drum tracks with scratch guitar and building on top of those tracks. Creatures was a unique experience, and the drum sound that Creatures is so known for was a unique experience. To try and duplicate that, you'd have to go back into the same room, use the same microphones.

I tended to record the drums in ways that they hadn't done before. I used Telefunken 251s, and I put them all over the drums. It's a very rare microphone—there are probably only 700 left in the world. But it captured a broad spectrum of the low end. I did the same with Lick It Up. It was just the way that I did things. But to make Lick It Up sound like Creatures, we would have had to record in the same studio, under the same circumstances. And even then, it wouldn't have been the same. But it would have been closer. Lick It Up was recorded at Right Track Studios in New York—spent a lot of time on the drum tracks. It was a fun record to make.
.

[PinkWiz]

I believe that most of us share this viewpoint of Vinnie.

Yes we do... but unfortunately Vinnie has to internalize it and spit it back out as everyone is against him. Couldn't be further from the truth.

[Brainsaw]

LORETTA CARAVELLO: He liked Vinnie. I can tell just from the pictures he took of them. He thought he was a great guitar player. But whatever opinion he had, he had to basically keep to himself, because that's not his decision. But you've got to do what's best for the band, and if Gene and Paul didn't want him, then that's how it had to be. He just mentioned that Vinnie was leaving. He didn't say much, I'm telling you—he tried to keep a lot of the stuff out of the house.



--

BOB KULICK: [Eric's] frustration level really reached its height when I did Paul's tour [Paul did a short solo tour of clubs in 1989]. Because instead of him playing those songs, it was Eric Singer, and Paul allowed Eric Singer to take liberties he would never allow Eric Carr to take. And this created animosity, because Eric Carr could not understand why that was so, even though it was as plain as the nose on my face. "We're not Kiss, so we can get away with playing a whole bunch of different stuff." Although having said that, every time I asked Paul, "Can I do a longer solo at the end?" "No!" "Can I extend the solo at the middle of this one?" "No!" He never gave me any room. And there were times he barked about, "Can you play it closer to what Ace was playing?" They did bust chops, not only Eric Carr's, but mine as well ... and I wasn't even in Kiss! Forget about what they did to my brother. But what I'm saying to you is that in a way, he had become a tortured soul, and this is part of the program that to me was sad, because you've got a hit band. You shouldn't be a tortured soul. But he took it too seriously, and so I think that is where the grey area came in—the drummer in a mega-star band but feeling less than what he should have about it.

[PinkWiz]

LORETTA CARAVELLO: He liked Vinnie. I can tell just from the pictures he took of them. He thought he was a great guitar player. But whatever opinion he had, he had to basically keep to himself, because that's not his decision. But you've got to do what's best for the band, and if Gene and Paul didn't want him, then that's how it had to be. He just mentioned that Vinnie was leaving. He didn't say much, I'm telling you—he tried to keep a lot of the stuff out of the house.



--

BOB KULICK: [Eric's] frustration level really reached its height when I did Paul's tour [Paul did a short solo tour of clubs in 1989]. Because instead of him playing those songs, it was Eric Singer, and Paul allowed Eric Singer to take liberties he would never allow Eric Carr to take. And this created animosity, because Eric Carr could not understand why that was so, even though it was as plain as the nose on my face. "We're not Kiss, so we can get away with playing a whole bunch of different stuff." Although having said that, every time I asked Paul, "Can I do a longer solo at the end?" "No!" "Can I extend the solo at the middle of this one?" "No!" He never gave me any room. And there were times he barked about, "Can you play it closer to what Ace was playing?" They did bust chops, not only Eric Carr's, but mine as well ... and I wasn't even in Kiss! Forget about what they did to my brother. But what I'm saying to you is that in a way, he had become a tortured soul, and this is part of the program that to me was sad, because you've got a hit band. You shouldn't be a tortured soul. But he took it too seriously, and so I think that is where the grey area came in—the drummer in a mega-star band but feeling less than what he should have about it.

wow. you really changed my mind with all that. vinnie is TOTALLY right and gene and paul are TOTALLY wrong. thanx for clearing that up.

[doublev2]

sorry but its paul and gene's band they can do what they like. I dont see any problems. everyone hates the boss. Eric Carr had a long solo on Hot in the Shade tour. Eric Singer plays all kiss songs since paul tour in a generic way even more so than Eric and Eric got to sing one or two songs live. They also used his song All Hells breakin loose as a single.. I think cutting him out of that video when he wrote it was low though but its not his band.

[doppelganger]

Maybe this has got to do with a case of Reversed Discrimination
Maybe it has to do the Jewish teaching that 'jews only view themselves as human, and the rest of the planet as goyim (cattle) or animals, or even insects.'

Look at the ethnic background of the KISS Members. Paul Stanley & Gene Simmons are both Jewish. no question.
And web searches do indicate that Bruce Kulick and Eric Singer are both Jewish as well.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_memb ... are_Jewish

Vinnie Cusano, (Vinnie Vincent) originally wanted to use his birth name in the band but this was vetoed by Gene Simmons on the grounds that it sounded "too ethnic" being that Vinnie is Italian.
http://thekisswiki.wikispaces.com/Vinnie+Vincent

Criss was born George Peter John Criscuola. He is of Italian descent.
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Criss

Eric Carr was born Paul Charles Caravello. Italian descent.
'His parents were Albert and Connie Caravello. "My parents were real supportive, and they knew how much I loved the Beatles. They liked the fact that I was playing music, I was a real good kid. I didn't do anything to make trouble. They weren't going to pick on me for something like that. They're real good Italian parents.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Carr

Paul Daniel "Ace" Frehley was born and raised in the Bronx, the youngest of three children. His father, Carl, was the son of Dutch immigrants and his mother Esther's family originated from Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_Frehley

Maybe Stanley Harvey Eisen & Chaim Weitz have some issues with Italians & Germans. Reminds me something that occurred. Maybe some huge historical event. And it's their payback by using their Jewish ethnicity or religion backgrounds to treat the 'rest of the planet (band members included) as goyim (cattle) or animals, or even insects.'

Interesting way to put it. Different spin on things.
'n. pl. goy·im (goim) or goys Offensive
Used as a disparaging term for one who is not a Jew'

[Brainsaw]

Maybe this has got to do with a case of Reversed Discrimination
Maybe it has to do the Jewish teaching that 'jews only view themselves as human, and the rest of the planet as goyim (cattle) or animals, or even insects.'

Look at the ethnic background of the KISS Members. Paul Stanley & Gene Simmons are both Jewish. no question.
And web searches do indicate that Bruce Kulick and Eric Singer are both Jewish as well.
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_many_memb ... are_Jewish

Vinnie Cusano, (Vinnie Vincent) originally wanted to use his birth name in the band but this was vetoed by Gene Simmons on the grounds that it sounded "too ethnic" being that Vinnie is Italian.
http://thekisswiki.wikispaces.com/Vinnie+Vincent

Criss was born George Peter John Criscuola. He is of Italian descent.
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Criss

Eric Carr was born Paul Charles Caravello. Italian descent.
'His parents were Albert and Connie Caravello. "My parents were real supportive, and they knew how much I loved the Beatles. They liked the fact that I was playing music, I was a real good kid. I didn't do anything to make trouble. They weren't going to pick on me for something like that. They're real good Italian parents.'
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Carr

Paul Daniel "Ace" Frehley was born and raised in the Bronx, the youngest of three children. His father, Carl, was the son of Dutch immigrants and his mother Esther's family originated from Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ace_Frehley

Maybe Stanley Harvey Eisen & Chaim Weitz have some issues with Italians & Germans. Reminds me something that occurred. Maybe some huge historical event. And it's their payback by using their Jewish ethnicity or religion backgrounds to treat the 'rest of the planet (band members included) as goyim (cattle) or animals, or even insects.'

Interesting way to put it. Different spin on things.
'n. pl. goy·im (goim) or goys Offensive
Used as a disparaging term for one who is not a Jew'

Remember though, Gene and Paul busted and kept Bruce down and busted Bob Kulick as well.


=
CHRISTINA HARRISON: Eric and Bruce were two peas in a pod, because Bruce is really insecure in many ways. I would always tell Bruce, "You're a typical Jewish guy. You're so neurotic." And he's like, "Thank you, Christina ... thank you very much!" He's like your typical Jew, y'know? They would always say, "Did you watch the show?" They'd both be beating themselves up—"Oh, I could have done this better." But we wouldn't be watching the show, because we'd seen it a million times.


BRUCE KULICK: Like most Italians, it was the usual drama kinda thing. And yet, similar to Jewish people, you love your parents so much. He loved his folks. He spent a lot of time with them. He would pick on their idiosyncrasies, of course. I was always flipped out by how much his father looked like him. In some ways, Loretta does, too, [and] sounds very much like him. It was kind of funny. But there sometimes were aunts and other people that would show up, and look, I grew up in New York, and I'm Jewish. I had so many Italian friends growing up, and I love them. And they're characters. Everything is loud and wild and over-the-top and full of life and love and drama and craziness. And that's his family—I loved them. I welcomed it, it was great. It was always wonderful to see his folks. His sister was a trip, and still is.

The Eric Carr Story Greg Prato

[doppelganger]

Just read this at, http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/cc ... essage/690
C.C. DeVille at Gene Simmons' record release party
on April 22nd.I ended up at a table (very long booth with quite a few tables in
front of it) with Gene Simmons, CC Deville, Bill Mahr, Ron Jeremy
and a bunch of the girls on Gene's CD cover, as well as the above
mentioned guys girlfriends. CC is a fucking strange fuck anyhow (but
you guys know this already) but it was really apparent that he was
coked out of his skull as well as drunk as fuck, but at this point
seemed more on blow. Anyhow, everything was cool, Gene had like 8 TV
cameras following him all over the club as well as downstairs
filming what was going on at the booth. Gene is saying hello to
everyone in the booth and giving a little face time on cam with
each. CC goes to say hi to Gene and IMMEDIATELY, Gene asks
him.... "are you ok?" CC says yeah, I am fine. Gene says you don't
look fine, are you ok? CC is insisting that he is fine. Gene keeps
up with this (all the while the cameras are rolling) then Gene kinda
grabs his shoulders and tells him to look him in the eyes, Look in
my eyes, let me see your eyes, he tells him a couple 2-3 times. I
was trippin at Gene calling CC out on being high in front of
everyone and the cameras... It was starting to feel really
uncomfortable at this point, and CC is insisting he is ok and
kissing Gene's ass. Gene tells him, something to the effect of,
There is nothing worse than a Jew fucked up on drugs. That is not
exact, but it is very close to what he said. At this point Gene
leans over and starts whispering in CC's ear for at least a few
minutes. Then the conversation went to something about how Gene
won't give money to charity, but would give money to create
jobs..... blah blah blah.......'

Think Gene was mistaken as per http://www.thephora.net/forum/archive/i ... 62236.html
'C.C. DeVille (guitarist for Poison...Scandinavian-American born Bruce Johannesson)'

[metatron]

Remember though, Gene and Paul busted and kept Bruce down and busted Bob Kulick as well.

Very Good point BS.
Ah, maybe cause Bruce 'liked Italians' excluded him from being looked after by Gene & Paul.
Don't know...Just taking a stab. More likely, just has to do with Gene & Paul's huge egos

[Brainsaw]

Remember though, Gene and Paul busted and kept Bruce down and busted Bob Kulick as well.

Very Good point BS.
Ah, maybe cause Bruce 'liked Italians' excluded him from being looked after by Gene & Paul.
Don't know...Just taking a stab. More likely, just has to do with Gene & Paul's huge egos

I think it has more to do with Paul's insecurities than Gene.

From Peter's book, Paul is the one pulling Gene's strings on alot of things. And it's Paul who gets upset with Peter upstaging him at times.

Then of course, Paul is harassing and tormenting Eric Carr. Eric doesn't want to talk to Paul at all. Paul's the one really pushing to get Eric out of the band. Paul used Singer on the demos for HITS.

Then of course with Vinnie--its Paul who is bitching to anyone who will listen that Vinnie is trying to turn KISS into the VVI band. And Vinnie's doing this and Vinnie's doing that. And Paul's upset because Vinnie is upstaging him. And heaven forbid, Vinnie have a VV model guitar when Paul doesn't have his own.

And Bruce Kulick and Bob Kulick are getting it from Paul.


Maybe Gene wouldn't have minded so much about Vinnie because he know's the value VV brings. Much less work for Gene and better results. While Paul would let his own ego hurt the band.

[metatron]

Sounds like a likely scenario. Paul's a hairy chested bitch.
http://www.myspace.com/toiletboysnyc/mu ... y-48897393

[5minLuvKills]

Interesting stuff. I've seen this book around but never investigated it, this peaked my interest

Also that Tale of the Fox DVD is interesting as well...I have that one

[ankh]

Mark reported that he got scolded for playng guitar behind his back, or with his teeth, and generally upstaging Paul,to the point that Paul first demdanded to the crew to take away mark's volume pedal and then to him ordering to mark to stop doing some things on stage.

I don't believe in the racial issue,even Bruce's statment could be seen as a racial comment.It has to do more with being the leaders of the band and having huge egos, coupled with insecurity.What they rarely admitted is that kiss near demise was caused by the four of them-and their management and record label- succumbing to the demons associated with success.

Burce has stayed so many years-besides his skills as guitarist and songwriting contributions- thanks to his accomodating personality.
I think he knew more that he was just an employee and that was it.

Like i've said before, it is a bit confusing if the person next to you is acting friendly one second and then like a boss the next one.

[erg2]

I have this book. It's not very good. It's in cohesive. It's light on facts and heavy on outsider perceptive and anecdote compiled 20 years after the fact. If you're a huge KISS fan like me, pick it up. It does shed some light. But if you're more casual or you like factual accounting like KISS & SELL, then you will probably hate this.

Since a lot of it is conjecture that can be taken as fact and then extrapolated to form a conclusion, I'm sure Brainsaw loves it. (What a jagoff.)

[Brainsaw]

It's light on facts and heavy on outsider perceptive and anecdote compiled 20 years after the fact.

Hell it should be your favorite book then!! ha ha That will probably go right over your head as well....

[5minLuvKills]

BS I'm trying to stay out of a flame war with you but doesn't it give you pause that you rub a lot of people here the wrong way. I guess if you have contempt for us it might not matter to you but it just seems pointless to post here if you antagonize most people because basically they don't care what you say .

[poserboy71]

[erg2]

It's light on facts and heavy on outsider perceptive and anecdote compiled 20 years after the fact.

Hell it should be your favorite book then!! ha ha That will probably go right over your head as well....

Oh dear opponent, you doth cut me to the quick. I fear I shall not recover. Your cleverest barbs are far too complex for one so low as I. Please sir, spare me such pummelings in the future.

(What a jagoff.)

[Brainsaw]

Mark reported that he got scolded for playng guitar behind his back, or with his teeth, and generally upstaging Paul,to the point that Paul first demdanded to the crew to take away mark's volume pedal and then to him ordering to mark to stop doing some things on stage.

I don't believe in the racial issue,even Bruce's statment could be seen as a racial comment.It has to do more with being the leaders of the band and having huge egos, coupled with insecurity.What they rarely admitted is that kiss near demise was caused by the four of them-and their management and record label- succumbing to the demons associated with success.

Burce has stayed so many years-besides his skills as guitarist and songwriting contributions- thanks to his accomodating personality.
I think he knew more that he was just an employee and that was it.

Like i've said before, it is a bit confusing if the person next to you is acting friendly one second and then like a boss the next one.

I agree on most of what you say. But as far as Bruce--the guy couldn't write to save his life. Sure, his name is on some songs like Eric got.

Any Kulick penned songs stand out at all??

[erg2]

Couldn't write to save his life? Weird. I enjoyed quite a bit of the material on the two Union albums and the 3 Bruce Kulick solo albums. Not everything. It's not the best I've ever heard. But it's not terrible.

But I love that you can dismiss a person's entire career with one blanket statement. True to your jagoff nature.

[Brainsaw]

Couldn't write to save his life? Weird. I enjoyed quite a bit of the material on the two Union albums and the 3 Bruce Kulick solo albums.

You would! And why not name those great KISS songs he wrote?

And apparently Bruce has a huge following:

Bruce Kulick - BK3: 9,000 (Soundscan)

[erg2]

I see. Something is only good if it sells a lot of records, eh? Van Gough barely made a living while alive and yet he is considered one of the greatest painters to have ever lived. That is one HELL of an argument you have there, jagoff. And you once again managed to quote a statistic from an internet source. Fantastic. You should be working in the research department for any of the major news publications with skills such as yours. I'm truly amazed.

Ja-Ja-Ja-Jayayaya-goffffff!!!

[Brainsaw]

I see. !

So you still can't come up with a list of songs that Bruce wrote while in KISS that were any good??!

Instead of spamming the board with your nonsense.... try and come up with that Bruce list. Come on!

[erg2]

First off, jagoff, a list of "good" Bruce songs would be totally subjective to the listener. What is good to me might not be good to you. What would that prove?

I will play Carnac the Magnificent here and predict that whatever songs I list, Jaggy McJagoff will cry "those songs suck". SUBJECTIVITY you douchebag.

From CARNIVAL OF SOULS:
RAIN
JUNGLE
I WALK ALONE

From AUDIO DOG:
A CHANGE IS COMING
MONSTER ISLAND

From TRANSFORMER:
CRAZY
DON'T TELL ME SOMETHING

From BK3:
HAND OF THE KING
DIRTY GIRL
AND I KNOW

[ankh]

i think some of the "collaborations" started with Bruce riffs, so when i've mentioned his songwriting skills i was referring more to the ideas he may have given to the bosses that ended up being a sort of "co-write",like "king of the mountain","hell of high water" and some songs on Kiss attempt to cash in from the grunge era,"COS".

Even Lick it up that was basically a Vinnie song Paul didn't care for at first, became the leading single and it resulted in a cowrite.

[erg2]

Don't try to make sense with the ass pimple. He is the only one that knows what a good song is and what a bad song is.