Some act like the new characters (The Fox and the Wiz) didn't help the band. Was that really the case?
All 4 originals were around for Dynasty. A tour that lost millions. When Unmasked came out, they were still "pretending" all 4 were there. They couldn't tour the US at all.
And from label documents, it had only sold around 450,000 copies several years after release.
Were the new characters ever really given a chance at all? Especially when "COTN" was promoted with Ace being there.
Who knows how things would have gone if "Creatures" had been promoted with Vinnie on the cover and in the video.
KISS - did the new characters hurt or was KISS already done?
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Re: KISS - did the new characters hurt or was KISS already done?
It did hurt the band at the time. Literally three years KISS did not tour their home country (the single Unmasked show at the tiny Palladium not withstanding) and two "new" faces was not a good thing for the brand.
As discussed in another thread where you question the creation of new characters, KISS had to do it for legal reasons and for what fan expectations were at the time. KISS was Ace Frehley, Peter Criss, Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley. They were also known as The Spaceman (or Space Ace), The Catman, The Demon and The Starchild (or Lover as well) to their fans, but in recent times that is all they are being called, making them generic terms for whoever has that makeup design.
In the original makeup days there was only one of each, so we got a Fox, very cool, and an Egyptian Guitar Wizard, not as cool, but I guess they were rushed and good ideas are hard to come by. Eric was very lucky with how his turned out. To me as a fan, Eric as the fox made total sense. The Fox replaces the cat, so cool. And Australia was well aware of Eric as we were KISS mad at this time, when America was cooling. So on the Creatures tour it was very much a case of two new guys.
Paul and Gene learned that those original characters where so recognisable and that's why we are stuck with them now. The original is the most recognisable and marketable version of KISS.
As discussed in another thread where you question the creation of new characters, KISS had to do it for legal reasons and for what fan expectations were at the time. KISS was Ace Frehley, Peter Criss, Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley. They were also known as The Spaceman (or Space Ace), The Catman, The Demon and The Starchild (or Lover as well) to their fans, but in recent times that is all they are being called, making them generic terms for whoever has that makeup design.
In the original makeup days there was only one of each, so we got a Fox, very cool, and an Egyptian Guitar Wizard, not as cool, but I guess they were rushed and good ideas are hard to come by. Eric was very lucky with how his turned out. To me as a fan, Eric as the fox made total sense. The Fox replaces the cat, so cool. And Australia was well aware of Eric as we were KISS mad at this time, when America was cooling. So on the Creatures tour it was very much a case of two new guys.
Paul and Gene learned that those original characters where so recognisable and that's why we are stuck with them now. The original is the most recognisable and marketable version of KISS.
Commander in chief - VVF Army
Re: KISS - did the new characters hurt or was KISS already done?
I wonder what would have happened if the new characters were actually given a fair chance.
It seems the band didn't know what to do and tried to have it both ways and it didn't work. They seemed to want to keep pushing that Ace was still in the band, but then they made up a new character and went on with that.
What would it have been like if they just admitted from the start, Ace was out? If Vinnie was on the album cover. If he was in the video(s).
I also wonder if they had been smart and licensed the whole Brazil concert to be shown on MTV soon after it aired there. But the full show.
As you can tell from some of the live recordings on the COTN box set, Vinnie didn't sound his best on those early shows they use. But later on during the tour, they were going all out.
If only their label was behind MTV in the beginning. Creatures needed more than 1 music video for sure. It needed 2-3 to really push the "heavier" KISS. And they certainly needed to a concert film to show how the new KISS was doing.
It seems the band didn't know what to do and tried to have it both ways and it didn't work. They seemed to want to keep pushing that Ace was still in the band, but then they made up a new character and went on with that.
What would it have been like if they just admitted from the start, Ace was out? If Vinnie was on the album cover. If he was in the video(s).
I also wonder if they had been smart and licensed the whole Brazil concert to be shown on MTV soon after it aired there. But the full show.
As you can tell from some of the live recordings on the COTN box set, Vinnie didn't sound his best on those early shows they use. But later on during the tour, they were going all out.
If only their label was behind MTV in the beginning. Creatures needed more than 1 music video for sure. It needed 2-3 to really push the "heavier" KISS. And they certainly needed to a concert film to show how the new KISS was doing.
"This whole 'rotation' thing is absolutely meaningless and weird. It's most likely coming from label to save face" - DoubleV
Re: KISS - did the new characters hurt or was KISS already done?
A full release of Brazil would have been fantastic for the band no doubt, and the fact that bloody Polygram were against MTV at the start was also a very bad thing for them. Took them a while to undertstand they needed to give this new channel their videos for free. A new 80's ballgame they didn't want to play.
It was a tough time. The big reason they kept persisting with Ace was their 1980 contract with Polygram specified they needed three original members or there would be a reckoning, and KISS had pissed Polygram off with lawsuits going back to the Solo albums. They were so dirt poor they bit the hand that feeds them. There was also a business deal for land or something that went really bad at this time, so the KISS machine was really cash strapped, but pretending to still be as big and mighty as ever, and pretending Ace was still in the band to keep Polygram at bay for as long as possible, but it was obviously inevitable that they would find out.
Another video would have been great, not sure why they didn't do another to keep some momentum out there for where they were not actively touring.
I always wonder why they chose All Hell's Breaking Loose, which is a great song, for the other single on LIU. It's not exactly a concert staple, yet it was made into a video, such a strange choice.
It was a tough time. The big reason they kept persisting with Ace was their 1980 contract with Polygram specified they needed three original members or there would be a reckoning, and KISS had pissed Polygram off with lawsuits going back to the Solo albums. They were so dirt poor they bit the hand that feeds them. There was also a business deal for land or something that went really bad at this time, so the KISS machine was really cash strapped, but pretending to still be as big and mighty as ever, and pretending Ace was still in the band to keep Polygram at bay for as long as possible, but it was obviously inevitable that they would find out.
Another video would have been great, not sure why they didn't do another to keep some momentum out there for where they were not actively touring.
I always wonder why they chose All Hell's Breaking Loose, which is a great song, for the other single on LIU. It's not exactly a concert staple, yet it was made into a video, such a strange choice.
Commander in chief - VVF Army