Gene and Paul on Vinnie (more BS)

[Luxor]

Gene Simmons and Paul Stanley on creating Vinnie Vincent's Kiss character



They bs about the new characters (which were never really given much of a chance).

More false claims that they had to hire Vinnie nonsense.

You'd think Paul had never heard of the song "Back On The Streets".

Shame this guy had this opportunity and didn't ask better questions or follow up's.

[Genebaby]

I'm not sure I understand your take on the characters and Vinnie joining.

After the initial makeup run, when everything was secret and of course Ace and Peter owned their designs it was a must to put anybody new into a completely new look. Of course the best thing for the band would be for the original designs and faced but it was not possible. Fast forward to after the reunion when Ace and Peter are making things difficult, they now owned the desgin so could use them to unify the band as the KISS of the 70's in appearance. Cool that there wasn't a revolving door of drummers and guitarists, just Eric and Tommy until whatever happens next when this version of the band is over.

Vinnie was hired based on deadlines and being there. Being there a LOT, in their faces, look at me, look at me! And good on him, he had the drive to get what he wanted, into a band like KISS. Not at their peak but a lot bigger than so many other bands in the world at any time. Bigger than my band, LoL....

[Luxor]

I'm not sure I understand your take on the characters and Vinnie joining.

After the initial makeup run, when everything was secret and of course Ace and Peter owned their designs it was a must to put anybody new into a completely new look. Of course the best thing for the band would be for the original designs and faced but it was not possible. Fast forward to after the reunion when Ace and Peter are making things difficult, they now owned the desgin so could use them to unify the band as the KISS of the 70's in appearance. Cool that there wasn't a revolving door of drummers and guitarists, just Eric and Tommy until whatever happens next when this version of the band is over.

Vinnie was hired based on deadlines and being there. Being there a LOT, in their faces, look at me, look at me! And good on him, he had the drive to get what he wanted, into a band like KISS. Not at their peak but a lot bigger than so many other bands in the world at any time. Bigger than my band, LoL....

Who owned the makeup designs when there were 4 partners in the KISS Company? Did the individual members own them or did the corporation?

[Genebaby]

Each member. It was just in my timeline that Peter sold his on this date in 1987. Basically all his rights to KISS, which was a bargin sale at that time.

Ace did something different with his, maybe leases it, or used to lease it, and then sold it. That is why his makeup on the KISS My Ass albums is not correct, the rights could not be secured.

This problem, plus the thinking of KISS being anonomous super heros to the public made them have to come up with all new characters and costumes, something they would rather have not done, though in 1980 I think there would have been a backlash if someone replaced Peter as the cat. Back in the glory days they were famous as the person using the persona. These days it's been diluted to Catman, Starchild, Spaceman and Demon, which makes it simple to replace someone.

When I was a kid the lead guitarist in KISS was Ace Frehley, now that is the Spaceman, but really, Tommy Thayer is being Ace Frehley.

[Luxor]

Each member. It was just in my timeline that Peter sold his on this date in 1987. Basically all his rights to KISS, which was a bargin sale at that time.

Ace did something different with his, maybe leases it, or used to lease it, and then sold it. That is why his makeup on the KISS My Ass albums is not correct, the rights could not be secured.

Where are you finding each member owned their own and not the Kiss Corporation prior to each leaving? Pretty sure it was the KISS Corporation who trademarked them in 1978 and owned them.

Was KISS stupid enough to hand over the individual rights to Peter when they fired him and yet let him keep 25% interest in the KISS Corp?

and then were they yet, dumb enough again to let Ace walk away with those rights when he quit KISS and cost them millions upon millions?

The corporation could have easily held on to those rights. That's the point. Just like back then all the members owned the publishing to all the songs regardless of which member wrote the song.

That kind of "everyone owns" the publishing in the band is what Carmine Appice warned Gene and Paul about Vinnie. Somehow Vinnie was horrible, because he didn't want to be the Little Red Hen who did all the work and yet the others get to eat all they want without doing anything.


If you don't know the story:

A hen living on a farm finds some wheat and decides to make bread with it. She asks the other farmyard animals to help her plant it, but they refuse. The hen then harvests and mills the wheat into flour before baking it into bread; at each stage she again asks the animals for help and they refuse. Finally, with her task complete, the hen asks who will help her eat the bread. This time the animals accept eagerly, but the hen refuses them stating that no one helped her with her work and decides to eat the bread herself. She then runs away with it.

[Luxor]

I also don't understand why it seems so hard to grasp that Paul is falsely using the "new characters" as an excuse. Paul always has to have an excuse. When did Eric or Vinnie's character ever have a chance? Especially in the United States?

Instead of blaming the characters, Paul should have blamed the music. The new characters had nothing to do with KISS' downfall. People turned away because of the decline in music by the band.

When KISS couldn't tour the US to support 2 albums, it was not because of Eric Carr and the new makeup character of "The Fox". That album didn't sell. Kiss was finished in the US and Eric wasn't even there for that. Peter Criss was still in the band when the album was released. When they put out a video and did promotion for it. Unmasked came out May 20th. Eric Carr wasn't introduced until July 25th. The album had already peaked on Billboard before Eric introduced.

Did basically anyone in the US even know "The Elder" had been released? So Eric's debut with the band, he is still completely unknown.

Eric's "The Fox" finally makes an appearance on COTN. But The Wiz isn't there. Ace is still there so they can "pretend" Ace is in the band.

Kiss finally do something they had been unable to do for years. Tour America. And they didn't lose millions like they did on their previous US tour. They had an album that was on the charts for almost 20 weeks. That was the longest since "Dynasty". And "Dynasty" only managed 25 weeks.

So Paul trying to blame the "new characters" is just wrong in everyway possible.

So much of KISS' fanbase was brand new in 1982-1983 and the new fans certainly embraced Eric and Vinnie and the characters. Alot of the new fans didn't even care about Peter or really know who he was and it didn't take them long to move on from Ace to Vinnie.

[Genebaby]

KISS completely had massive issues at this time. The loss of two founding members, the fact they had not toured the country since 1979, a full three years away from the public's eye. This blew my mind when I found out about it, as I didn't realise it for a while, but for the general public, who move on to other things, this was a long time away, and times had changed, it was the 80's now.

So no, the new members didn't get much of a chance, but that's the way it was. Eric was better known in the rest of the world, we all loved him in Australia so knew him quite well. I didn't even know about Vinnie as a young Australian kid, the next thing KISS I remember was Heaven's On Fire and my interest in KISS returned. By Crazy Nights I was hooked and have been a fan since.

Eric as a replacement for Peter made great sense as a kid, the fox replaces the cat, and his makeup design was excellent. Vinnie's was a rush job even more, but the KISS machine was doing the best it could at the time. The public just didn't know too much about it so when the album cover has Ace on it many that showed up didn't know to expect Vinnie instead.

KISS' public perception by then was too far down the toilet for much to save it. Creatures and LIU should have been selling by the millions but they had lost too many fans to other bands, or they had moved on alltogether after the The Elder fiasco.

As much as I wish that KISS had finally steered the ship back to rock and roll credibility instead of concept album delusions of grandeur, a proper KISS album like they started doing instead of The Elder could have really changed the course of their 80's career, but then we wouldn't have Creatures and LIU would we? Ace may never have left, the mind boggles.

Ace never leaving, Vinnie never leaving, it would all have been differerent somehow, but we got what we got.