Was Vinnies musical crash a failure to move past the cheese

[1031]

Ok dont throw rocks at me, but it occurred to me while listening to some Vin that he seemed stuck in the very predictable 80's melodies once he left Kiss. And if Euphoria had moved past Invasions tailor made 80's cheese melody's wise would have been more excepted.

I get why he wrote the style he did in Invasion it was 80's rock on steroids, he was saying ok I can do this but on 11. But in the past he was always very adaptable to what band he was in and the style for that moment. But when he had the chance to move past what was cheesy about the 80's he just said ok here it is again but instead of 11 its on 14..

Granted 86 was a bit schizophrenic music wise but that would have given him the opportunity to bring something new to the table. He knew that the last effort did not sell well enough to keep him as a player record company wise. And he was smart enough to know even if you are difficult prick if you come with a product that is going to sell.. all is forgiven.

So the question stands did he drown in the cheese?.. as I hold up my bullet proof glass.

[doublev2]

Well I kind of see what you mean.
I love the cheese but I think a lot of metal fans would have called at least some of asg 'cheese'. But surely metal is all about cheese!

Gfh would be a commercial flop because no songs you can play on radio and surely thats why no major labels picked it up in 1989/1990 along with v's rep.

[shramiac]

Nicklelback is way cheesier than Vinnie was and they're doing ok!

[doublev2]

To be honest I would say most of vvi is not cheesy. But I am a piece of Cheddar.

[1031]

Ya dont get me wrong I love the metal cheese of the 80s its really about the very similar melody lines between a lot of the bands at the time... And most the time cheese sells, its that 80's cheese shelf date was up. Hell he could have invented a whole new cheese, but didnt I guess thats what I am getting at.

[Slayer]

I think that this is a hell of a thought provoking thread.

I just have a couple of rebuttals in that I differ from Brother Dino in my opinion that if Guitars From Hell or even Guitarmagedon had been commercially released and if Vinnie had been reasonable and well mentally those recordings could have made him a main stream guitar icon rather than an underground guitar icon. I think that Vinnies playing was that advanced and his songwriting that good. Respectfully to everyone we have to ask ourselves how commercial Alice in Chains, Nirvana and Metalica really sounded at that time even though they were huge commercial successes? They were much more sober and certainly lacked the cheese but IMO 'Guitars From Hell is and was much better but was never properly finished and was sadly never heard by the masses.

Maybe I'm on the island by myself but I think these recordings would have put Vinnie in the league of Satriani, Vai and Malmsteen. At his best he was the most tasteful but ferocious player that I have ever heard or seen.

Great thread that you started Rob!

Kev

[Possio]

Maybe he should have Co written more?, meaning, bringing in somebody else (famous or not)
to collaborate with who might have had some other "fresh ideas"? or, the finger
on the pulse so to speak...naturally, that implies giving someone else the benefit of the doubt.

[birnie]

He certainly is that wild horse that needs to be, well not broken or tamed, but having the reigns being pulled in gives the best results (imo)
eg... collabarations with KISS,
Chrysalis demanding shorter solos on Ashes (and probabaly others) which some argue is better (although some like the original better)

I was talking to Vic about the cheese, mainly on the lyrics though.
I simply cannot listen to cheese like "I wanna luuuuurv i wanna love, that's naughty naughty" anymore.
I could when I was 16-17, but not now.

My gawd, really, imagine what heart felt music a 60 yr old Vinnie could put out with a nice acoustic on his lap.

[Possio]

Funny thing is, those old songs from Treasure are
much more in the mature style than what came later, albeit,
A bit "puppy love" if you catch my drift..

[1031]

Funny thing is, those old songs from Treasure are
much more in the mature style than what came later, albeit,
A bit "puppy love" if you catch my drift..

Thats part of my thoughts .. He had the ability to play a more mature music as well as R&B POP and stripped down rock ala KIss... but seemingly could'nt switch gears as before and at a time if he ever needed to it was right then.

[Possio]

sometimes it is really difficult to go back...

[doublev2]

Kev I hear you. I just think he didnt obviously go out and try and make a radio hit. No songs like love kills.. that time if year . Ohh just forgot youngblood (not my favourite lita ford rejected it). Yeah I agree non commercial stuff can become commercial but I just dont think gfh screemed obvious commercial hit to record labels. I stil think its probably the best of the 3 vv albums though

[Slayer]

Kev I hear you. I just think he didnt obviously go out and try and make a radio hit. No songs like love kills.. that time if year . Ohh just forgot youngblood (not my favourite lita ford rejected it). Yeah I agree non commercial stuff can become commercial but I just dont think gfh screemed obvious commercial hit to record labels. I still think its probably the best of the 3 vv albums though

Hi Dino,
Just to better clarify what I wanted to say above. I don't really mean to illustrate that GFH would have been a commercial success with the masses like Nirvana and Metalica etc. but I think that from a guitar and song writing standpoint that this would have pushed Vinnie over the top from a guitar playing standpoint. He very well may have been mentioned in the same breath as a Vai, Malmsteen or Satriani. I really like the songs on GFH and Euphoria and still I'm anxious to hear any unreleased recordings. I thought that the unreleased song that surfaced recently that had that Steely Dan feel was superb!

If Vinnie could have had a better business mind GFH could have opened the door for a lot musical endorsements and guest artist appearances but it wasn't meant to be and Vinnie has to own his piece of this reality.

[doublev2]

yeah for sure. totally agree.

The thing is Vai is amazing but stays well within a safe zone while vv just wanted to take things over the top. The over the top thing went a little against him but I love it. Certainly he is in the league of best guitar players and yes GFH may have done that. If he had a solo instrumental album I also think that would have changed things. He really needed that.

[Genebaby]

We really got a taste of both sides didn't we? The first album was pure Vinnie OTT goodness. Ferocious guitar work and vocals from hell.

ASG saw what Vinnie could do with VVI in safe mode, for the record company apparently. They are different but both are great.

I also enjoyed Vinnie as a "restrained" player/writer on LIU, it worked so well.

I guess I like Vinnie, whatever he does, he can make it work musically, just not for long.

[Slayer]

yeah for sure. totally agree.

The thing is Vai is amazing but stays well within a safe zone while vv just wanted to take things over the top. The over the top thing went a little against him but I love it. Certainly he is in the league of best guitar players and yes GFH may have done that. If he had a solo instrumental album I also think that would have changed things. He really needed that.

+1 Totally agree