Paul/Gene Rip Mark St. John In New "Guitar World"

thattimeofyear87 · Post by **thattimeofyear87** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:51 pm

From the new issue of "Guitar World," Paul and Gene's most recent thoughts on Mark St. John:

Paul Stanley: My classic story with Mark is that during the making of "Animalize" I sent him home one night to come up with a solo to one of the songs. And the next day he came back and played me something that was at least a start. Then I said, "Play it again." And he said, "I can't." The guy could never play the same thing twice, because he was just puking notes. There was no structure to any of it. So I told him, "Go home and listen to Eric Clapton. Listen to Paul Kossoff. Listen to Jimmy Page." And he looked at me and said, " I can play faster than them." So that about sums it up. Check, please!

Gene Simmons: Mark's guitar playing was like an angry bee flying around your head. The most irritating sound. And he would show you that his fingers could stretch 11 frets. He could play very fast, but he was all technique. He did not have a style or soul.

Paul Stanley: Obviously health issues derailed his being in the band [soon after recording "Animalize," St. John developed Reiter's Syndrome, an arthritic condition that left him unable to play], but I don't know how long he could have been in the band. He was the poster child for, as far as I was concerned, not understanding what great guitar playing was about.

thattimeofyear87 · Post by **thattimeofyear87** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:55 pm

I take two issues with these comments:

1) The guy is no longer with us. Show at least one ounce of respect by acknowledging that fact. Why don't Paul and Gene just piss on his grave?

2) You know, you'd think these sort of style issues would be worked out beforehand. How the hell did Paul and Gene let MSJ into their band? How does Paul not make these observations before bringing him onboard? Either he's incredibly stupid or he's spinning hindsight nonsense.

That said, as much as I don't agree, their criticisms of Mark's playing are their own and, as such, completely valid.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:30 pm

Yes, you're right! If he was so bad why was he in the band? Is it because they wanted Vinnie mark II???

I've heard the Get All You Can Take demo on youtube and Mark is playing it almost the same as the album version! I call BS on the "can't play the same thing twice" line!

If Bob K had been telling them to use Bruce since '82 and they actually used Bruce on Animalize for touchups, why didn't they just use him full stop?

Post by **Genebaby** » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:35 pm

Poor form guys. This is the highly technical angry bee that you auditioned and accepted. Angry bee is what you wanted Gene. You or Paul would not have let a more classic (Ace) style player in the band at that point.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:28 am

I believe they took mark because so quiet and shy and they thought he would just do what he said . I think also he was just a kid. Don't think it's too fair to be honest.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:30 am

This kind of dispels that buzzing bee thing

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:34 am

Also i think it's cool he couldn't play same thing twice but does show more of a musician than rock n roll band member

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 2:57 am

Even after his death I think Gene and especially Paul still resent Mark for all the shit he talked in interviews after being kicked outta Kiss.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 3:16 am

If Gene and Paul said this I find their remarks repulsive even if they believe them to be true. I too call bull shit and will attest that he was an excellent player and in fact the second best technical guitar player to ever play in Kiss. He was what they wanted and needed following Vinnie Vincent and through he couldn't write like Vinnie he could in fact shred like him. Dino, good choice for a song to post in Magic Bullet Theory as I love that song and think that it is a good representation of Mark Nortons Style.

"Piss on his grave" I think this statement is well illustrated and Gene and Paul's comments about a dead man are unnecessary, untrue and disappointing.

Kev

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:38 am

I used to have an interview with gene talking about all ex kiss members and what they were doing and he said white tiger was the worst and frehleys comet the best. It was from 1987. He said vv was best controlled like in kiss. To be honest commercially gene is correct as vv's 2 biggest hits I love it loud and lack it up are so simple . Vv actually can mot do something that simple on his own. But I like the other stuff better but commercially gene in my opinion is correct.

thattimeofyear87 · Post by **thattimeofyear87** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:36 am

I think Mark plays a controlled, melodic solo in this song:

[youtube][/youtube]

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Sun Mar 02, 2014 11:03 am

Just back form an Uli Roth concert............

Wonder what G&P would have thought of Uli's unique rendition of "all along the watchtower" and "Little wing"

Plus, Uli didn't feel well and told me he was suffering form pain in the chest,yet he took time to chat with me and sign my stuff........for free.

Following G&P precoconveid idea of a rock guitarist, people like Mc Laughing or Holdsworth aren't good musicians............yet years ago Yngwie was considered for Kiss.

What they said reek of animosity that goes beyond simple differences in taste.......... they couold have formulated better they thoughts without gettin so personal about somebody who is no longer here.
And we're talkin about men in their 60's.........

kisslolo · Post by **kisslolo** » Sun Mar 09, 2014 6:18 pm

https://www.facebook.com/officialbrucekulick

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:00 am

with all the due respect,Bob could only dream to be like Neal Schon..............the rest of the comments show how some people get senile.............

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Sun Mar 16, 2014 4:13 pm

kisslolo wrote:

https://www.facebook.com/officialbrucekulick

BUT WE ($immon$ AND $tanley) STILL KICKED BRUCE OUT OF THE BAND

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 1:51 am

ankh wrote:with all the due respect,Bob could only dream to be like Neal Schon..............the rest of the comments show how some people get senile.............

neal schon's playing was like ace's. great for it's time.....but he stopped growing.

also very pedestrian

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 2:13 am

AceAlive1 wrote:
ankh wrote:with all the due respect,Bob could only dream to be like Neal Schon..............the rest of the comments show how some people get senile.............

neal schon's playing was like ace's. great for it's time.....but he stopped growing.

also very pedestrian

I respectfully disagree.

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 12:01 pm

poserboy71 wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
ankh wrote:with all the due respect,Bob could only dream to be like Neal Schon..............the rest of the comments show how some people get senile.............

neal schon's playing was like ace's. great for it's time.....but he stopped growing.

also very pedestrian
I respectfully disagree.

thats fine by me.

its arena rock guitar. its not technical

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 10:00 pm

AceAlive1 wrote:
thats fine by me.

its arena rock guitar. its not technical

I respectfully disagree AGAIN.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Mon Mar 17, 2014 11:56 pm

He rips on Hear'n'Aid's We're Stars!

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 1:08 pm

poserboy71 wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
thats fine by me.

its arena rock guitar. its not technical
I respectfully disagree AGAIN.

where's he in the top 100 list if on it at all?

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:07 pm

AceAlive1 wrote:
poserboy71 wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
thats fine by me.

its arena rock guitar. its not technical
I respectfully disagree AGAIN.

where's he in the top 100 list if on it at all?

There were some great names in the Top 50 list but also a large number of popular guitarists that only made the list because it is a popularity contest rather than an evaluation of their chops. One list that I reviewed recently was the fastest of all time that had people like Jimmy Page and Jimi Hendrix on it and tough they are great songwriters and solid and popular players it is an insult to peoples intelligence to say that they are among the top 50 fastest of all time with players like Vinnie Vincent absent from the list.

Alvin Lee?
Johnny Winter?
Unbelievable!

1031 · Post by **1031** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:03 am

Ok get your flame throwers ready... I understand what they are saying from a musicians stand point and view I will explain in a sec. I do think they could have said we made a bad choice when looking at him, his playing style was not a good fit. We look at skill and not feel our bad.

On St. John style and mind set as he approached music, great example: At the guitar shop I do repair work for there is a teacher that is fast and can do all the sweep stuff, knows all the exotic scales but the guy has zero feel. And struggles when he has to break from the logical completion of a run. When he plays say little wing it sound like a robot playing it and even adds notes that are not there but would complete a logical run. He can play fast and faster. Now where he shines is melodic comp, it sound beautiful and complete. But he cant stand to play Jimmy Page solos, he hates the guys work calls it sloppy and nonsense. The Idea of perfect imperfection eludes the guy. Its kinda like if a opera singer had to sing Janis Joplin.

So I get where G&P are coming from, but think they should have taken responsibility for hiring the guy and given St. John his due as a player in his field of expertise.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:14 am

Well said, 1031!

Like I said, Gene and especially Paul's sour grape comments are probably dictated by the years of shit St. John talked about Kiss. Obviously they won't admit that they very much WANTED an EVH type technical player and jumped on a bandwagon... as usual.

Hell, Mark even had that EVH boy next door look and him having three names (Mark St. John=Eddie Van Halen) was obviously Gene and Paul prepping him as their Van Halen-ish guitar virtuoso. Paul was trying to be Roth around this time too.

1031 · Post by **1031** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:22 am

PinkWiz wrote:Well said, 1031!

Like I said, Gene and especially Paul's sour grape comments are probably dictated by the years of shit St. John talked about Kiss.

I really don't take much of what St. John said after Kiss to task true or not, the guy was a raging meth crack addict after Kiss till he died. Sad but active addicts have a distorted view of the world or anyone they interact with. I don't think G&P get that or they would have cut him some slack in the interview. There's no point in holding a resentment with a addict, especially a dead one.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 6:09 am

Exactly.

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:17 am

Slayer wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
poserboy71 wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
thats fine by me.

its arena rock guitar. its not technical
I respectfully disagree AGAIN.

where's he in the top 100 list if on it at all?
There were some great names in the Top 50 list but also a large number of popular guitarists that only made the list because it is a popularity contest rather than an evaluation of their chops. One list that I reviewed recently was the fastest of all time that had people like Jimmy Page and Jimi Hendrix on it and tough they are great songwriters and solid and popular players it is an insult to peoples intelligence to say that they are among the top 50 fastest of all time with players like Vinnie Vincent absent from the list.

Alvin Lee?
Johnny Winter?
Unbelievable!

indeed!

that oddly enough is the only list like that i could find, so apparently people dont have the balls to make their own list for fear of backlash. lol

the only thing i didnt understand was that jimmy page and all these other big names are on here....and most of them STOLE from blues artists who couldnt be paid a dime by zep and alot of other bands but the blues artists themselves are not here. and the fact that randy rhoads is so low on the list is comical when you have a ton of people playing versions of his guitar to this very day.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:35 pm

1031 wrote:Ok get your flame throwers ready... I understand what they are saying from a musicians stand point and view I will explain in a sec. I do think they could have said we made a bad choice when looking at him, his playing style was not a good fit. We look at skill and not feel our bad.

On St. John style and mind set as he approached music, great example: At the guitar shop I do repair work for there is a teacher that is fast and can do all the sweep stuff, knows all the exotic scales but the guy has zero feel. And struggles when he has to break from the logical completion of a run. When he plays say little wing it sound like a robot playing it and even adds notes that are not there but would complete a logical run. He can play fast and faster. Now where he shines is melodic comp, it sound beautiful and complete. But he cant stand to play Jimmy Page solos, he hates the guys work calls it sloppy and nonsense. The Idea of perfect imperfection eludes the guy. Its kinda like if a opera singer had to sing Janis Joplin.

So I get where G&P are coming from, but think they should have taken responsibility for hiring the guy and given St. John his due as a player in his field of expertise.

Great Points Brutha and no flame throwers!

K

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:45 pm

AceAlive1 wrote:
Slayer wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
poserboy71 wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
thats fine by me.

its arena rock guitar. its not technical
I respectfully disagree AGAIN.

where's he in the top 100 list if on it at all?
There were some great names in the Top 50 list but also a large number of popular guitarists that only made the list because it is a popularity contest rather than an evaluation of their chops. One list that I reviewed recently was the fastest of all time that had people like Jimmy Page and Jimi Hendrix on it and tough they are great songwriters and solid and popular players it is an insult to peoples intelligence to say that they are among the top 50 fastest of all time with players like Vinnie Vincent absent from the list.

Alvin Lee?
Johnny Winter?
Unbelievable!

indeed!

that oddly enough is the only list like that i could find, so apparently people dont have the balls to make their own list for fear of backlash. lol

the only thing i didnt understand was that jimmy page and all these other big names are on here....and most of them STOLE from blues artists who couldnt be paid a dime by zep and alot of other bands but the blues artists themselves are not here. and the fact that randy rhoads is so low on the list is comical when you have a ton of people playing versions of his guitar to this very day.

Ace,
I think that we both read some of the same lists and feel similar on this topic. It is very different to have a subjective list of the 100 greatest guitar players of all time but when one talks about the top 50 fastest guitar players of all time the criteria surely should be speed and clarity with speed. Alvin Lee and Johnny Winter have their places in rock history but in my opinion it is not on the top 50 fastest list of all time.

Kev

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Wed Mar 19, 2014 7:58 pm

Albert Lee maybe!

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 2:51 am

AK,
Your giving a lot of credit to pentatonic scales to lift Alvin Lee up to this pirch?

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 3:43 am

No love for Nigel?

[youtube][/youtube]

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 6:55 am

PinkWiz wrote:No love for Nigel?

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Thu Mar 20, 2014 7:16 am

Slayer wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
Slayer wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
poserboy71 wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
thats fine by me.

its arena rock guitar. its not technical
I respectfully disagree AGAIN.

where's he in the top 100 list if on it at all?
There were some great names in the Top 50 list but also a large number of popular guitarists that only made the list because it is a popularity contest rather than an evaluation of their chops. One list that I reviewed recently was the fastest of all time that had people like Jimmy Page and Jimi Hendrix on it and tough they are great songwriters and solid and popular players it is an insult to peoples intelligence to say that they are among the top 50 fastest of all time with players like Vinnie Vincent absent from the list.

Alvin Lee?
Johnny Winter?
Unbelievable!

indeed!

that oddly enough is the only list like that i could find, so apparently people dont have the balls to make their own list for fear of backlash. lol

the only thing i didnt understand was that jimmy page and all these other big names are on here....and most of them STOLE from blues artists who couldnt be paid a dime by zep and alot of other bands but the blues artists themselves are not here. and the fact that randy rhoads is so low on the list is comical when you have a ton of people playing versions of his guitar to this very day.
Ace,
I think that we both read some of the same lists and feel similar on this topic. It is very different to have a subjective list of the 100 greatest guitar players of all time but when one talks about the top 50 fastest guitar players of all time the criteria surely should be speed and clarity with speed. Alvin Lee and Johnny Winter have their places in rock history but in my opinion it is not on the top 50 fastest list of all time.

Kev

i agree on all parts.

we should never put "fast" and "great" in the same sentence. otherwise yngwie ends up on this list and i dont like the guy one bit.

fastest i've ever heard was randy. alot of it didnt end up on albums.

and from various stories i've heard (not sure if i believe all of them) but apparently he had to "slow down" when he played in bands and his work to date was him "fooling around" and people call it "some of the best ever"

so it really lends some proof to the fact the guy might have been a real heavenly angel who got a shot at being human for the 7 or so years he was in the lime light.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:17 am

Randy had speed and technique but those only shined brightly as a cohesive bond on the two Ozzy discs and tours.
His playing on the Quiet Riot albums was good but lacked the experience that playing with musicians like Daisley, Kerslake, etc... would afford him.
He definitely wasn't the fastest. He was damn tasty on those Ozzy recordings though.

7 years ????
Randy was BARELY in the limelight. He was only STARTING to be recognized for his talent shortly before his death.He was a local hero.
I adore Randy and have visited with Delores at Musonia, but to be honest he would be experiencing the same ups and downs as someone like George Lynch or Brad Gillis had he lived .

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:22 am

poserboy71 wrote:Randy had speed and technique but those only shined brightly as a cohesive bond on the two Ozzy discs and tours.
His playing on the Quiet Riot albums was good but lacked the experience that playing with musicians like Daisley, Kerslake, etc... would afford him.
He definitely wasn't the fastest. He was damn tasty on those Ozzy recordings though.

7 years ????
Randy was BARELY in the limelight. He was only STARTING to be recognized for his talent shortly before his death.He was a local hero.
I adore Randy and have visited with Delores at Musonia, but to be honest he would be experiencing the same ups and downs as someone like George Lynch or Brad Gillis had he lived .

i did say "7 years or so" so around that.

sorry im not an old fart who remembers it all

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Fri Mar 21, 2014 10:12 pm

AceAlive1 wrote:
i did say "7 years or so" so around that.

sorry im not an old fart who remembers it all

His fame didn't extend much beyond the county line until a few months before his death.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 11:14 am

Slayer wrote:AK,
Your giving a lot of credit to pentatonic scales to lift Alvin Lee up to this pirch?

ALBERT Lee Kev! Albert!

[youtube][/youtube]

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Sat Mar 22, 2014 1:44 pm

Fire bombs at the ready........................

IMO, there's a lot of myth and magic about Randy. There were scores of guitarists who could play better than him and had more technique in '82! From DiMeola to Vai to Vinnie to a 19 year old Yngwie, could have easily played Randy's stuff. Not to mention all the jazz guitarists and classical guys and girls. Not to say he couldn't learn their stuff though but we'll never know!

Randy was easily the best muso in QR and even though I enjoy watching those bootlegs, there is a reason QR never got a US record deal! The songs were pretty bad! A snip here and there were good but not enough!

For me, the reason Randy shone so brightly in late '79 to March '82 was down to one man, Robert John Daisley (with help from Lee Kerslake....ok two men)! Bob brought all the greatness out of Randy! If Dana or Rudy Sarzo had been brought into the Blizzard from the beginning, in my mind, there is no way in hell we would have got those two albums out at anywhere near the level they ended up at! And even then, I was always slightly disappointed with the fact that Randy pretty much played the same spotlight solo for 4 or 5 years from the QR days to the Blizzard tours! The only real change to it was when it became a band instrumental on the Madman tour and even then it was almost the same. But the same could be said for Tommy Aldridge and probably a few others too (Eddie......) I guess?

Randy's playing is accessible to many guitar players, heck I used to play 3 or 4 songs in my old band! I can't say that for a Malmsteen or Vai tune.........they're freakin hard!

Hopefully Bob will get to release the "Grail Tapes" ASAP (pretty please with a cherry on top!) and we'll get to hear Randy unabridged! I honestly don't think we'll hear anything that different in Randy's playing though!

Having said all that, there is a magic to his work and every time I listen to Blizzard, DoaM or Tribute.....Randy is my favourite guitarist again!

(Then the Vinnie and 1990-97 Marty Friedman doors start knocking in my brain!!!

)

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:30 am

However he creatively got there, there was shear writing magic on B.O.Z. and D.O.M.M.

On some songs there was truly something utterly evil sounding going on. Believer is just one example and no one at that time in my opinion ever composed like this at this level of technique. (Evil)

Tony Iommi didn't have this level of technique and composing and it was years later before Tracy Grijalva came along who did and could compose songs that sounded like that again

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:38 am

Intro to Believer is actually a QR song intro!

You forgot about VH's version of Pretty Woman, Kev! That's downright freakazoid!

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Sun Mar 23, 2014 10:06 am

Slayer wrote:However he creatively got there, there was shear writing magic on B.O.Z. and D.O.M.M.

On some songs there was truly something utterly evil sounding going on. Believer is just one example and no one at that time in my opinion ever composed like this at this level of technique. (Evil)

Tony Iommi didn't have this level of technique and composing and it was years later before Tracy Grijalva came along who did and could compose songs that sounded like that again

aboslutely. the lyrics of believer dont match the sound. it sounds scary as shit just like god of thunder.

shramiac wrote:Intro to Believer is actually a QR song intro!

You forgot about VH's version of Pretty Woman, Kev! That's downright freakazoid!

and now you know why that version of quiet riot broke up.....randy essentially showed kevin "here look what you said "no" to" and i made it work elsewhere

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:15 am

Kevin had enough talent to get up on stage and be in full "Kevin Voice".
That was always impressive.
He had good taste in music... The Faces, Humble Pie, etc...
Writing songs wasn't his strongest ability BUT he did come up with a few good ones. Dare I say just as many as John Osbourne ACTUALLY contributed to.
It wasn't Kevin's fault as far as doing things with Randy's riffs, it was Daisley's TALENTS that crafted those riffs into incredible songs.

Kevin was an absolute asshole to deal with otherwise. Thank GOD that I only dealt with his shit for a month.
I couldn't imagine BEING FORCED to be in a band with him to keep my career going. Now THAT is a sad existence.

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:35 am

poserboy71 wrote:Kevin had enough talent to get up on stage and be in full "Kevin Voice".
That was always impressive.
He had good taste in music... The Faces, Humble Pie, etc...
Writing songs wasn't his strongest ability BUT he did come up with a few good ones. Dare I say just as many as John Osbourne ACTUALLY contributed to.
It wasn't Kevin's fault as far as doing things with Randy's riffs, it was Daisley's TALENTS that crafted those riffs into incredible songs.

Kevin was an absolute asshole to deal with otherwise. Thank GOD that I only dealt with his shit for a month.
I couldn't imagine BEING FORCED to be in a band with him to keep my career going. Now THAT is a sad existence.

wow. u were in a band with him? how bad was that?

i know kevin actually was in the song writing process........ozzy was literally NOT THERE at any given time.

i remember phil soussan saying the same thing for the ultimate sin. ozzy was in rehab and randy castillo, phil and jake e lee wrote it all.

but then ozzy got song credit....again...

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 1:58 am

I was a tech for QR on a Poison tour.

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Mon Mar 24, 2014 5:23 am

poserboy71 wrote:I was a tech for QR on a Poison tour.

yikes.

Cesarolivares · Post by **Cesarolivares** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 1:41 am

Any info on the auditions to replace Vinnie?

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:23 am

https://books.google.it/books?id=LXPlCQ ... ss&f=false

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Feb 18, 2018 12:44 am

As bad a recording it is mark sounds good for a guy with not many gigs behind him and a hand problem. Love gun solo sounds interesting.. At least different