Vinnie and the KISS contract

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:14 pm

5minLuvKills wrote:I think in some parallel universe G&P are spin doctors for politicians who dabble in music on the side

been watching sliders?

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:38 pm

AceAlive1 wrote:
Brainsaw wrote:"I was the only guitar player in Kiss who was there for both the make-up and for whEm they decided to take it off. I was the only one to see both worlds," he remembers today. "I played about 90 percent of the solos on the Creatures album. I wrote a lot of the songs, and I wrote most of the songs on Lick It Up too. But by the second album with them, I realized that was as far as I was ever going to get with them. They wanted to control me, to keep me down, and basically not to let me have too much attention, not let me be a star. That's just not what I had in mind. I always say: 'If you've got me-fucking use me! But make sure you give me credit, too.'"

For Vinnie the final straw came when Jackson Guitars offered to come out with a new Vinnie Vincent model. Thrilled out of his wits, Vincent brought what he thought was great news to Gene (Simmons) and Paul (Stanley). Their responses horrified him:

"I was so honored to be asked," he says proudly. "The last person they put a guitar out for was Randy Rhoads. They wanted to do a campaign with me. When I told Gene and Paul they said, very bluntly: 'Why should we let you be a star in your own right when that way you can walk out on. us any time you want? Why should we be responsible for making you a star?' I couldn't believe it! I tried to argue. I pointed out that the bigger I get the bigger Kiss would get. The bottom line was that they wouldn't let it happen."

(Metal Nov 1986)

i just lost a shit load of respect for gene and paul seeing as the people that have been in kiss since him have had multiple endorsements for instruments/amps etc. this is horse pucky.

Of course, who else other than Vinnie that has been in there has had a chance to go out on their own and be a star? I don't think you'd have to worry about Eric Carr. Good drummer. Not a very good songwriter. OK singer.

MSJ-good player. Sorry songwriter. Can't sing

Bruce Kulick-avg player. Sorry songwriter. Can't sing

Eric Singer- good drummer. Ok singer. Can't write.

Tommy Thayer. Gene's poodle.

Portillo · Post by **Portillo** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:04 pm

Brainsaw wrote:"I was so honored to be asked," he says proudly. "The last person they put a guitar out for was Randy Rhoads. They wanted to do a campaign with me. When I told Gene and Paul they said, very bluntly: 'Why should we let you be a star in your own right when that way you can walk out on. us any time you want? Why should we be responsible for making you a star?' I couldn't believe it! I tried to argue. I pointed out that the bigger I get the bigger Kiss would get. The bottom line was that they wouldn't let it happen."

(Metal Nov 1986)

How do we know that is the truth?

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:19 am

Just emailed grover on this one.

Grover is not a fan by the way.

5minLuvKills · Post by **5minLuvKills** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:01 am

AceAlive1 wrote:
5minLuvKills wrote:I think in some parallel universe G&P are spin doctors for politicians who dabble in music on the side
been watching sliders?

No, but now that you mention it...

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 1:23 am

5minLuvKills wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
5minLuvKills wrote:I think in some parallel universe G&P are spin doctors for politicians who dabble in music on the side
been watching sliders?

No, but now that you mention it...

thats one of my favorite shows and its the first thing that came to mind. lol

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:55 am

Brainsaw wrote:"I was the only guitar player in Kiss who was there for both the make-up and for whEm they decided to take it off. I was the only one to see both worlds," he remembers today. "I played about 90 percent of the solos on the Creatures album. I wrote a lot of the songs, and I wrote most of the songs on Lick It Up too. But by the second album with them, I realized that was as far as I was ever going to get with them. They wanted to control me, to keep me down, and basically not to let me have too much attention, not let me be a star. That's just not what I had in mind. I always say: 'If you've got me-fucking use me! But make sure you give me credit, too.'"

For Vinnie the final straw came when Jackson Guitars offered to come out with a new Vinnie Vincent model. Thrilled out of his wits, Vincent brought what he thought was great news to Gene (Simmons) and Paul (Stanley). Their responses horrified him:

"I was so honored to be asked," he says proudly. "The last person they put a guitar out for was Randy Rhoads. They wanted to do a campaign with me. When I told Gene and Paul they said, very bluntly: 'Why should we let you be a star in your own right when that way you can walk out on. us any time you want? Why should we be responsible for making you a star?' I couldn't believe it! I tried to argue. I pointed out that the bigger I get the bigger Kiss would get. The bottom line was that they wouldn't let it happen."

(Metal Nov 1986)

I read that before .

Post by **Genebaby** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 7:57 am

Brainsaw, it's clear Vinnie is passionate about his music, he left Kiss to pursue his vision and I love his work in both mediums.

Invasion was true to his vision, ASG was not, though was released as if everything was fine at the time. It's unfortunate that they did not just ride the wave so they could be established as a mega band and Vinnie would then be free to let his music be what he truly wanted.

Playing the game is vital to success as the labels are only out to make money. When your bigger you can release what you want. How else would have Kiss gotten The Elder out? Lol.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 8:19 am

i am sorry to start another argument but he didn't play 90% of the solos on Creatures either.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:02 am

doublev2 wrote:i am sorry to start another argument but he didn't play 90% of the solos on Creatures either.

I believe that Vinnie had a crack at all of the songs.

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:17 am

doublev2 wrote:i am sorry to start another argument but he didn't play 90% of the solos on Creatures either.

i've talked to vinnie before...he named at least 4 songs....thats more than anyone else played on

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:20 am

Where did you speak to Vinnie ?

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:54 am

i think most (or all) of Gene's tunes plus keep me comin. I don't know of any others. I would say 50 to 60% of solos.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:23 am

Here's the official/unofficial listing for CoTN

Creatures Of The Night - Unknown (pos. Mike Porcaro) on bass; Steve Ferris on lead guitar; Adam Mitchell on guitar
Danger - Bob Kulick on guitar; Jimmy Haslip on bass
Keep Me Comin' - Bob Kulick on guitar
I Still Love You - Eric Carr on bass; Robben Ford on lead guitar
Rock And Roll Hell - Robben Ford on lead guitar; Jimmy Haslip on bass
War Machine - Gene Simmons on rhythm guitar

So most likely Vinnie played solos on Saint and Sinner, I Love It Loud, Killer, and War Machine. Though I would not be at all surprised if Paul did the I Love it Loud solo!

Though, Danger sounds "Vinnie like" to me and has a different tone to the Keep Me Comin solo!

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:37 am

i love it louid was Vinnie.Gene had an argument about it wiht him, according to him.Since it comes from him,take tha t with a huge grain of salt;)

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 10:55 am

Bob Kulick didn't play on creatures album he recently came out and said that. Vinnie himself said he did the keep me comin' solo. Its possible Danger is Vinnie. War Machine , Killer and I love it loud is Vinnie.

Creatures and I still love you and Rock n roll hell is NOT Vinnie.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:59 pm

Genebaby wrote:Brainsaw, it's clear Vinnie is passionate about his music, he left Kiss to pursue his vision and I love his work in both mediums.

Invasion was true to his vision, ASG was not, though was released as if everything was fine at the time. It's unfortunate that they did not just ride the wave so they could be established as a mega band and Vinnie would then be free to let his music be what he truly wanted.

Playing the game is vital to success as the labels are only out to make money. When your bigger you can release what you want. How else would have Kiss gotten The Elder out? Lol.

It's a shame the label didn't reject The Elder. They had that right and they should have exercised it.

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:41 pm

if you read the financial stats regardign the Polygram contract and also how muhc it was spent for the production of the album, i think it is clear why the laabel didn't reject the label.Also, after so muhc wait and being past the deadline, i think thye did try to publish just the same even if they weren't keen to do so.Probabluy it would have costed them too much to use the reject option.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 6:49 pm

ankh wrote:if you read the financial stats regardign the Polygram contract and also how muhc it was spent for the production of the album, i think it is clear why the laabel didn't reject the label.Also, after so muhc wait and being past the deadline, i think thye did try to publish just the same even if they weren't keen to do so.Probabluy it would have costed them too much to use the reject option.

They could have saved the whole $2M KISS got as an advance had they rejected it, I believe. KISS would have had to deliver another "acceptable album" on their own dime after that.

And I don't' think them forcing KISS to go back would have done that much damage. As it was, the label approached them about doing the 4 songs for Killers in Feb 1982 and that was released in June of that year.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:45 pm

european version of label requested killers by the way.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:46 pm

the elder is a very good record and any band taking a risk like that should be applauded. Kiss are a better band for releasing the elder.

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:34 pm

Brainsaw wrote:
ankh wrote:if you read the financial stats regardign the Polygram contract and also how muhc it was spent for the production of the album, i think it is clear why the laabel didn't reject the label.Also, after so muhc wait and being past the deadline, i think thye did try to publish just the same even if they weren't keen to do so.Probabluy it would have costed them too much to use the reject option.
They could have saved the whole $2M KISS got as an advance had they rejected it, I believe. KISS would have had to deliver another "acceptable album" on their own dime after that.

And I don't' think them forcing KISS to go back would have done that much damage. As it was, the label approached them about doing the 4 songs for Killers in Feb 1982 and that was released in June of that year.

according to Lendt book, the band was a bit burn out and they tried some songs, but they had cold feet about them.So a combination of being nurn out, wanting more and wanted to be taken seriousily led them to hire Ezrin again and record oemhtign that was a real change.in a way i think it was the final process of a band succumbing to their own success.And the advanca was advance the money was already spent and since Kiss had so much success, they could record and experiment keeping the results secret til the end.Only then the label realized what was going on.
After the commercial failure-in the States- of the MFTE,the label ordered four new songs for the compilation meant for the european market.They were specific in requesting songs in hard rock vein.The four songs were recorded in the middle of the Creatures sessions.

To put icing on the cake, Kiss decided to sue their own record label over the schlock procedure.That was a bad mistake.And, if the things went in the way they are described in Kss and sell, the excuse used to push them to do that was based on some ridicoulous data.

So much for Pete and Ace to ruin Kiss carereer

Post by **Genebaby** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 2:58 pm

doublev2 wrote:the elder is a very good record and any band taking a risk like that should be applauded. Kiss are a better band for releasing the elder.

It certainly gave them focus and direction at a time when they were a bit lost. Gene and Paul that is, Ace wasn't lost and poor Eric had no say, he was just along for the ride.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:07 pm

doublev2 wrote:the elder is a very good record and any band taking a risk like that should be applauded. Kiss are a better band for releasing the elder.

Incredible record with great focus.
I wish it would have been successful. It really wasn't a grotesque stretch. It expanded their boundaries.
It was the last Kiss record that had songs from the DEMON character.

It would be a great thing to have the unedited version of this album in the proper order.

There were rumblings of more Elder albums. Too bad...

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 3:16 pm

I love The Elder and never really understood why some people bagged on it. There are so many good songs on it. Go go "The Oath"!

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:44 pm

poserboy71 wrote: It was the last Kiss record that had songs from the DEMON character.

War Machine, Not For The Innocent, Unholy?

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:46 pm

PinkWiz wrote:
poserboy71 wrote: It was the last Kiss record that had songs from the DEMON character.

War Machine, Not For The Innocent, Unholy?

I'll give you War Machine but can't give you the other two because the CHARACTER was long gone .

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:50 pm

poserboy71 wrote:
PinkWiz wrote:
poserboy71 wrote: It was the last Kiss record that had songs from the DEMON character.

War Machine, Not For The Innocent, Unholy?
I'll give you War Machine but can't give you the other two because the CHARACTER was long gone .

True, but if u believe Gene and Paul, the character UNDERNEATH was brought out by the makeup...

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 4:57 pm

It works better when in costume. Imagine if Mitt was wearing sequins and a feather boa.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:50 am

Guuurl.....

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:17 am

Brainsaw wrote:"I was the only guitar player in Kiss who was there for both the make-up and for whEm they decided to take it off. I was the only one to see both worlds," he remembers today. "I played about 90 percent of the solos on the Creatures album. I wrote a lot of the songs, and I wrote most of the songs on Lick It Up too. But by the second album with them, I realized that was as far as I was ever going to get with them. They wanted to control me, to keep me down, and basically not to let me have too much attention, not let me be a star. That's just not what I had in mind. I always say: 'If you've got me-fucking use me! But make sure you give me credit, too.'"

For Vinnie the final straw came when Jackson Guitars offered to come out with a new Vinnie Vincent model. Thrilled out of his wits, Vincent brought what he thought was great news to Gene (Simmons) and Paul (Stanley). Their responses horrified him:

"I was so honored to be asked," he says proudly. "The last person they put a guitar out for was Randy Rhoads. They wanted to do a campaign with me. When I told Gene and Paul they said, very bluntly: 'Why should we let you be a star in your own right when that way you can walk out on. us any time you want? Why should we be responsible for making you a star?' I couldn't believe it! I tried to argue. I pointed out that the bigger I get the bigger Kiss would get. The bottom line was that they wouldn't let it happen."

(Metal Nov 1986)

Wait...this is starting to make sense. Vinnie Vincent didn't sign a contract and G&P were afraid he wanted to get a name and leave! It sounds like they were trying to keep him in KISS.

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:24 am

am i the only one thinking gene and paul sabotage any members career when they leave the band? it seems no one does anything noteworthy with big record sales and tours after kiss.....til they come back

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:07 pm

Non of the guys who leave kiss have the mindset to make it alone. Some have the talent and not the people or business skills and some dont have enough rounded talent.
Its not easy to make it. Even in the 80s it was tough. Remember you have to deel with assholes all the time to make it and a lot of these business men found it hysterical to rip off heavy metal bands.
Talent isnt enough simetimes.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:10 pm

AceAlive1 wrote:am i the only one thinking gene and paul sabotage any members career when they leave the band? it seems no one does anything noteworthy with big record sales and tours after kiss.....til they come back

They could certainly try and make it harder on them. Threatening lawsuits against Vinnie is certainly one way.

But Vinnie got picked up on 2 major tours! Fastest selling debut in the history of Chrysalis records. And the bulk of those album sales came before "Boyz Are Gonna Rock" debuted on MTV.

Then they made some good changes that spurred even more sales of the follow up. They got rid of the Howard Bloom organization for one thing! That's why the press coverage etc go so much larger after that. Changes at the label with people who broke Poison came on board. Another reason why you saw a huge push for ASG than the previous effort.

Things that hurt--delaying ASG until the publicity was in full force. hat hurt. They missed out on being the opening act on the Aerosmith "Permanent Vacation" tour.

Did KISS and the record label conspire against PETER CRISS on his first two solo albums?

Ace--sure they kept Eric Carr away and some other things. But Ace's biggest problem was lousy songs on "Second Sighting". Having Tod replace Richie. And while better songs on "Trouble Walking" still not great.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:16 pm

Brainsaw wrote: Having Tod replace Richie... [/color]

I love Richie's Rock N Roll soul ,but the man cannot sing and I'm not sure about his writing.
Todd, while slightly pussified, wrote hooks and sang like a bird.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:18 pm

I think if KISS had any clue they would have swallowed their pride and added "Remember Me" into the tour set list. It would have been amazing.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:20 pm

I can think of more Kiss-like Ace solo songs they could've done.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:23 pm

poserboy71 wrote:I can think of more Kiss-like Ace solo songs they could've done.

It would have been a great encore song and Ace could have flown instead of Gene.... Ace should have been doing that song from the top of the rafters...

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:49 am

The entire KISS story is rife with what-ifs. Once the big money came rolling in and Gene and Paul got a taste for it, the real KISS was done. Never to be seen again. As I have posed time and time again, Ace and Peter and Vinnie dug their own graves, but Gene and Paul egged them on from the sidelines instead of being friends/bandmates and helping them to put down the shovels.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:15 pm

AceAlive1 wrote:am i the only one thinking gene and paul sabotage any members career when they leave the band? it seems no one does anything noteworthy with big record sales and tours after kiss.....til they come back

Ace Frehley is worth $ 35 million. I doubt he will come back for financial reasons.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:29 pm

KissMyAss wrote:
Ace Frehley is worth $ 35 million. I doubt he will come back for financial reasons.

Source please!

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:56 pm

Brainsaw wrote:
KissMyAss wrote:
Ace Frehley is worth $ 35 million. I doubt he will come back for financial reasons.

Source please!

There's your source. Celebritynetworth.com

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/riches ... net-worth/

Ace is a millionaire. Common KISS knowledge.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:13 pm

Ace Frehley's Estate

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:10 pm

KissMyAss wrote:
Ace is a millionaire. Common KISS knowledge.

Great source!! I'm sure they know what Ace's net worth is.

How many tours did Ace do with them?

Reunion Tour

Psycho Circus Tour

Farewell Tour

Lets just say for shits and giggles he did 250 shows during that time and got paid $50K a show.

The gross he would have made is $12,500,000 Take away taxes, management cut etc and he's down to around $6M net from all those shows.

He hasn't had that KISS money coming in for a long time. He loves to blow money. He probably has a net worth under $5M.

$35M is laughable!

Great source BTW!! Even funnier you believed it!

Did you bother to see what they have Peter listed at?

$2M

http://www.celebritynetworth.com/riches ... net-worth/

Where did Ace get the extra $33M that Peter didn't get????!!

Can't wait to see how you spin this one!

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:00 pm

I've got a migrane.

I bet you've heard that before

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:26 pm

KissMyAss wrote:I've got a migrane.

I bet you've heard that before

So does that mean you fell for a site that doesn't know jack??

Great sources you provide as proof!

1031 · Post by **1031** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:51 pm

You keep saying VVI was the fastest selling CHRYSALIS debut album , where is that info ? In the heat of the night
Pat Benatar's debut was released in Oct 79 and was gold by march 80. How was Vinnie out selling a album that went gold in five months and PLATINUM in Dec 80 ?

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:17 pm

1031 wrote:You keep saying VVI was the fastest selling CHRYSALIS debut album , where is that info ? In the heat of the night
Pat Benatar's debut was released in Oct 79 and was gold by march 80. How was Vinnie out selling a album that went gold in five months and PLATINUM in Dec 80 ?

Pat Benatar's album wasn't even in the Billboard top 200 albums in 1979 at all. All that happened in 1980.

Chrysalis took out a full page ad for the single and mentioned the album in the Sept 15, 1979 issue. Now maybe it had something to do with the single "If You Think You Know How To Love Me" (the second single from the album that did nothing).

The first single was "I Need A Lover".

The third single was released in December of 1979-- Heartbreaker

That song and the fourth single released in Feb 1980 "We Live For Love" are what got Pat a gold album.

The Invasion on the other hand....flew off the shelves.....and re-orders came pouring in. They couldn't even meet demand after the plant went down for several weeks.

And from the CHICAGO TRIBUNE 1986

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/1986 ... rise-video

Hard rock guitarist Vinnie Vincent`s recently released debut album,

``The Vinnie Vincent Invasion,`` currently ranks as the fastest-selling debut record in the history of Chrysalis Records; meanwhile, the album has just gone gold in Iceland. . . .

Post by **Genebaby** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:04 pm

The one thing I do remember hearing is that Invasion was the fastest selling (I think debut) album on Chrysalis, at the time. That was known to me.

Who knows what it took to achieve that status.

It or ASG still were not hit albums. HITS was not a hit album but Forever was a hit single.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:50 pm

The fastest selling debut album is slaughters stick it to you.

When saying fastest you have to say from when to when. It could be one hour or one year .. its too vague. You also need to list all chrysalis records debuts.. not many actually.