Rest in Peace.........

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RIP Mark St. John... forgot he died on April 5th.

R.I.P. I wonder if Heaven is still on fire?!

RIP Mr Norton.

he sounds good on that. too bad he never got to show of his skills to much

surely mark has and vinnie met as they were living in Los Angeles at the same time.

Theres an interview from '88 with Mark and he says Grover Jackson introduced him to Vinnie when Vinnie first joined KISS. Mark says something along the lines of "I can't believe this little greasy haired dude is the new guitarist in KISS?" I believe that full interview is on youTube somewhere.

I listen and enjoy the two solo albums he put out. The guy could really play. Just the wrong guy for KISS.

RIP

RIP Mark- Poor choices

he was in the studio with Jack Bruce,jeff Berlin and Allan Holdsworth, who was recording the album "Road games."Grover Jackson came in with his friend and he did presented him to us sayng"here's the new Kiss guitarist,Vinnie Vincent",We did mock him, sayng "Kiss,what a load of crap!".Irony of the fate: it was me who was in the same positions as his, after two years!(laughs).He did take too much space in Kiss and they were afraid i was like him,i believe"(Interview with a french magazine Hard Force).

in the same interview he explained how the audition went, how he was treated, and how his best work on animalize was completely erased from the tapes......... the interview is very interesting.........

It's sad that what happened to Mark in Kiss had a lot to do with Vinnie.

KISS treated Mark like the rebound girlfriend after a serious girlfriend fucked with your head.

ankh wrote:he was in the studio with Jack Bruce,jeff Berlin and Allan Holdsworth, who was recording the album "Road games."Grover Jackson came in with his friend and he did presented him to us sayng"here's the new Kiss guitarist,Vinnie Vincent",We did mock him, sayng "Kiss,what a load of crap!".Irony of the fate: it was me who was in the same positions as his, after two years!(laughs).He did take too much space in Kiss and they were afraid i was like him,i believe"(Interview with a french magazine Hard Force).

in the same interview he explained how the audition went, how he was treated, and how his best work on animalize was completely erased from the tapes......... the interview is very interesting.........

Yes! I used to have that audio interview. In that same interview he also makes fun of Bruce saying he's a good guitarist but not great and saying "if Paul said suck my dick then Bruce would probably do it." He was really bitter at the time.

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Impressed he was in the studio with holdsworth. In certain ways mark went beyond what vv was doing guitar wise but he didn't have the song writing ability that seperated vinnie from most great guitar players.

Mark was a friend of Holdsworth, has taught many rockstars and auditioned for Yes,Ozzy, Dave lee Roth and many others.Since he was a musician's musician,his approach and style were different than the mainstream.He had some songs in the can for Animalize, but Kiss rejected them.I think that with White tiger and also his first solo ep he tried to write more mainstream, but that wasn't his fortè.His first complete solo cd suffered from poor sound , production and mixing, probably because of the budget.If you listen very carefully, you can detect how the parts were more complex than what you can detect the first time around.it would have been nice to hear him on another solo effort with a nice production.Judging by the comments made by many of his peers and other musicians-except Peter Criss-, he was way,way more than good.
It would be nice too to listen to the real,proper first demos of Animalize, but that will never happen.The ones on net are, i think, from when Paul did take over the production and erased the first demos.

I have to respectfully disagree with Norton being more technical and schooled than Vinnie.
Mark never displayed anything in his playing that showed that he was more proficient than Vinnie.
Since we have basically the same amount of available material from both guitarists--------------

Mark = good playing , one trick pony

Vinnie= well rounded , well versed, and displayed better within great songs .

Mark MAY HAVE known a bit more music theory (I'm not convinced) but his musicality is far inferior to Vinnie's.

poserboy71 wrote:I have to respectfully disagree with Norton being more technical and schooled than Vinnie.
Mark never displayed anything in his playing that showed that he was more proficient than Vinnie.
Since we have basically the same amount of available material from both guitarists--------------

Mark = good playing , one trick pony

Vinnie= well rounded , well versed, and displayed better within great songs .

Mark MAY HAVE known a bit more music theory (I'm not convinced) but his musicality is far inferior to Vinnie's.

I agree. It's a shame Mark's life fell apart like it did, but Vinnie was more skilled and diverse than just about any guitarist I know. As skilled playing melodic pop as he was shredding and could also play jazz, blues and country.

Mark always spoke of his diversity but if his solo material was any indication his playing was heavily mired in the 80's metal sound. His jazz playing sounded like metal with a jazz "feel". The guy could shred in a unique and cool way, but I have no proof he could do anything significantly different.

With Vinnie we have him playing pop, R&B, rock and metal. The bonus tracks on ASG show real jazz and classical.

And let's not forget that Vinnie could write...GOOD songs. White Tiger, The Keep and Mark's solo work just aren't in the same league.

I guess I'm just going on what mark himself has said as far as music theory and blowing his own horn... vinnie never really claimed to be "schooled" as far as I know. he was just a natural talent and had an ear for it.

Fair enough but I wouldn't believe a meth-head.

That's a positive about Vinnie. I never heard him sound arrogant or braggadocious about his skills.

poserboy71 wrote:That's a positive about Vinnie. I never heard him sound arrogant or braggadocious about his skills.

... except when spyder or suzie take over.

For sure an 80s instrumental record by vinnie and one by mark.. vv is going to be the best and also not boring.. vv has the talent to make music people like and also show his skills off.. apart from speedball jamm .

i've read a lot of things about Mark and his ability to play different styles with prowess, and htose things were said by people who knew him and played with him.some were not too fond on his tendency to overplay, it seems.I think there was not enough proof for the poeple who didn't know him personally.

I'm not making any comparison, and Mark did say nice things about both Vinnie and Ace.my statement was more about how many years of study, playng and learning didn't have the chance to really be more available to the public.

I think in both cases, personal choices went in the way of what was there first, the love of music and the love of playng.Already the business is very tough itself, and talent often it's not what it's needed to find your way through.It is a shame that-for different reasons and choices-there wasn't enough recognition for both people who in common had the love for music and the guitar.

Vinnie over Mark for me.

Holdsworth apparently did like Mark's playing. Then again, Holdsworth doesn't consider himself a guitar player let alone a good one???????

They were both great, and equally fucked up in there own way.

1031 wrote:They were both great, and equally fucked up in there own way.

True.

Vinnie is more original but st John also had some surprises up his sleeves. I like the surprises, unpredictability and some times the rough edges. Sometimes perfect is boring.
Vinnie to me is entertaining because he plays the unexpected and i love that. I actually like kane roberts for that reason , not that kane is a guitar master.this is why I don't like tommy Thayer .

Tommy was boring in BnB and as an Ace clone he is MORE interesting player...but I can't get past the fact that it's not HIS creativity we're hearing just a series of Ace's most memorable licks reconfigured in different order. It's like watching a tribute band. It can be done to absolute perfection and even technically BETTER than the original, but it lacks the genuineness. (Plus surprise and unpredictability. You always know what Tommy will play...Ace was ALWAYS by the seat of his pants.)

Yeah and kiss used to say why they took off the make up in 1983 is so they didn't turn into there own tribute band

doublev2 wrote:Yeah and kiss used to say why they took off the make up in 1983 is so they didn't turn into there own tribute band

paul and gene were full of shit. they actually didn't look like a tribute band in '83 cause vinnie and eric had their own designs and of course creatures kicked ass and they had an edge again.

nowadays they are pretty much a full fledged tribute act. having tommy act like ace, the same old set list, same stage, same stage raps, etc.

erg2 wrote:

poserboy71 wrote:I have to respectfully disagree with Norton being more technical and schooled than Vinnie.
Mark never displayed anything in his playing that showed that he was more proficient than Vinnie.
Since we have basically the same amount of available material from both guitarists--------------

Mark = good playing , one trick pony

Vinnie= well rounded , well versed, and displayed better within great songs .

Mark MAY HAVE known a bit more music theory (I'm not convinced) but his musicality is far inferior to Vinnie's.

I agree. It's a shame Mark's life fell apart like it did, but Vinnie was more skilled and diverse than just about any guitarist I know. As skilled playing melodic pop as he was shredding and could also play jazz, blues and country.

Mark always spoke of his diversity but if his solo material was any indication his playing was heavily mired in the 80's metal sound. His jazz playing sounded like metal with a jazz "feel". The guy could shred in a unique and cool way, but I have no proof he could do anything significantly different.

With Vinnie we have him playing pop, R&B, rock and metal. The bonus tracks on ASG show real jazz and classical.

And let's not forget that Vinnie could write...GOOD songs. White Tiger, The Keep and Mark's solo work just aren't in the same league.

Agreed, Mark was a great player, but VV was something else. VV had the whole package. Not too many great guitar player are great songwriters. I love George Lynch, but when he wasn't it Dokken he wasn't that great. Lynch Mob was a big let down for me, Great guitar playing & that's where it ends. VV was the except to the rule.

Paul and Gene used to say in the late 80's they would not put the makeup back on as it would be a "step backwards" and they didn't want to become a tribute band, which is of course what we all know they are now. Made worse by the other two guys being held back from being themselves.

Genebaby wrote:Made worse by the other two guys being held back from being themselves.

Well, they DID let Singer use a double-bass kit finally instead of trying to make him use Peter's kit...

do you think Singer's double bass set is for show or for real?

I think we'll have to wait until Monster to find out.

And the new tour maybe. See what he does with it.

I thought it was called Monster munch

It worries me a little because I have always felt Singer overplayed for the style of music KISS is known for. Eric Carr pulled it off I think because they were going in a more metal direction...but this line-up and style is (so far) sticking to meat-n-potato rock. No double-bass required.

(And this comes from a drummer who was raised on double-bass. You have to play what's appropriate for the style.)