I was browsing through WOLFGANG'S VAULT and saw they have the full concert.

Listening to this I have to say these things:
- Gene & Paul saying the current line-up is the best is ludicrous shilling
- People saying Paul's voice is still good need only listen to this concert. DAMN! He was so cool once.
- I'm convinced. Eric Carr is the best of the 3 drummers.
- Vinnie's lead guitar made the classic KISS songs sound modern, fresh and deadly.
- Holy shit did they play the songs fast back then. So much energy. It makes the current band sound like they are close to taking a nap.
- Paul was a stellar hard rock frontman. Not parroting the same rap before each song, working the local crowd, not being politically correct and not afraid to curse.

Everyone that loves KISS and Vinnie need to seek out this show and revel.

Gee, the concert summary sure wasn't very nice on there!!

Sounds good . To think vv may have not played this gig if they found a replacement after they fired him in December 83

Genebaby wrote:Gee, the concert summary sure wasn't very nice on there!!

Yeah, there are still a lot of KISS haters out there that will not move an inch.

i like all line ups until bk joined and still somewhat liked them until Singer joined. i got to say i don't like revenge like most people.

I'm with you on Revenge. I like it because of the big production sound, monster guitars and the songwriting is overall better than it had been in a while...but I still think there are too many clunkers and Eric Singer overplays on it.

I think there are a lot of filler tracks (THOUGH SHALL NOT, PARALYZED, TOUGH LOVE) but really good filler tracks...if that makes any sense. I hate the way the chorus for UNHOLY is recorded...detracting from what is otherwise a fantastic song. I think EVERY TIME I LOOK AT YOU is an acceptable ballad but it is so status quo for a ballad that it just kinda felt like they did it "paint by numbers". And I HATE HATEHATEI JUST WANNA...I think it's just the worst kind of pandering that an established band of 40+ year old men should've aimed to be better than.

I think UNHOLY was a mistake as the lead single. At a time when metal was just coming under attack by grunge, songs like SPIT or TAKE IT OFF would've offered something different yet poppy. (I played the shit out of the album in my dorm and everyone reacted and talked about SPIT...even the non-metal and non-rock people got a kick out of it.) I was also disappointed to see GOD GAVE ROCK AND ROLL TO YOU II on the album because I had already bought the Bill & Ted soundtrack and felt like I got taken a little.

And I think CARR JAM 1981 was a huge insult to the memory of Eric Carr.
1) Cutting out Ace's lead guitar was just plain shitty and stupid. So Ace gets a few dollars...boohoo dicks.
2) Eric Carr had probably 5-10 cool songs strongly demoed...Ezrin could've cleaned up the vocals. Gene, Paul & Bruce could've overdubbed instruments and backing vocals and give the guy a proper tribute.
3) I think the album should've been titled in his honor somehow

Heart of chrome is good, I forgot the other vv track that's not unholy. I didnt like the ballad . Without vv songwriting I don't hear much good on the record.
I like singer in badlands and Pauls tour but I just don't like the sound of his drums.
I know gene says singer is by far the best kiss drummer but peter and eric always sounded good unlike singer.

doublev2 wrote:I like singer in badlands and Pauls tour but I just don't like the sound of his drums.
I know gene says singer is by far the best kiss drummer but peter and eric always sounded good unlike singer.

Agreed.

Revenge is not a great album for me.Many songs are just kiss versions of other songs(Domino more than hints at zztop,spit is similar to black dog tha t laready is not an original song),ETILAY is a plain rip off of "first cut is the deepest" by Cat Stevens.About Carr jam there was a bit of controversy started on the dale sharman book, where he states that Eric was looking for that song and the solo in it but didn't know where find it, only to magically reappear after his passing(Black diamond book).I think Unhloy was very good, same for GRNRTYII.Never liked Singer style or sound, buit this is a personal preference( to think they didn't get Dean Castronovo......),and Bruce as much as he consider that his best Kiss album was simply reashing pentatonic style solos without much imagination,even tough that wasn't his fault.Kiss was simply tryng to second guess the audience.And to see on tour that they were copyng other group ideas, well...........

Revenge was a come back to rock n roll for Kiss. Everything after Animalize sucked till Revenge in my mind. NO, its not the best album but, its better then Hot In The SHade, Asylum, Crazy Nights ... all horrible albums !!!

jesternjeff wrote:Revenge was a come back to rock n roll for Kiss. Everything after Animalize sucked till Revenge in my mind. NO, its not the best album but, its better then Hot In The SHade, Asylum, Crazy Nights ... all horrible albums !!!

I think HOT IN THE SHADE was the comeback in a lot of ways. It's not a great album, but it got them away from the frizzy overproduction sound. More stripped, more riff based.

There's just something calculated about REVENGE. It feels like they were trying to re-do DESTROYER and said, "We need a song like God Of Thunder. How about Unhoyly? We need a song like Christeen Sixteen. How about Domino? We need a ballad like Beth. How about Every Time I Look At You?" I think if they'd ever get back to being in KISS for the love of the music instead of the marketing they would write better songs.

Your right thats exactly what they did ! They tried to do a formula that worked for them in the past. IMO I think it worked for them. Hot In The SHade is there worst album, I would rather listen to The Elder truthfully speaking. I dont see what anyone can like off that album ... sorry !

Hot In The Shade is an album I almost never listen to. Maybe once every couple of years. I'm just saying that Hot In The Shade was a catalyst album. The creative exercise of working on those songs without over-working them in the studio seemed to reinvigorate them and the result was a re-focus on their writing.

Now, the re-focus would've worked better if they would've written more organically instead of writing to emulate something else. The writing on Revenge is considerably stronger than anything since Lick It Up, but even the BEST songs on the album lack a unique identity.

jesternjeff wrote:Your right thats exactly what they did ! They tried to do a formula that worked for them in the past. IMO I think it worked for them. Hot In The SHade is there worst album, I would rather listen to The Elder truthfully speaking. I dont see what anyone can like off that album ... sorry !

Little Caesar!!

i know "Forever" was a hit but it was such a trite song...........and to think they rejected "Eyes of love" and "somebody's waiting" to put other subpar BonJovi/leppard soundlikes............

Yes Carr was definitely under utilized as a songwriter and singer in Kiss and Im guessing cause Paul was afraid of one of his tunes being a hit like Peter with Beth. His ego couldnt take the drummer having yet another hit. Plus Paul couldve given two shits about the Beatles-all-four-members-singing-lead influence that Gene was so into.

Also by the 80's publishing $$$ was more important than ever. Something Eric and especially Bruce were also aware of.

Listening to that first Eric Carr posthumous album that his family released, it's clear that Eric Carr had multiple songs that were better than what ended up on HOT IN THE SHADE. That leads you to the conclusion that song choices for the album was not based on quality of the material. So, was Eric Carr not given more spots on the album because of GREED or JEALOUSY?
- Tiara is a beautiful ballad
- Eyes Of Love is a great 80's rocker

Possibly both. Kiss were wary after Vinnie.

I honestly believe Paul was responsible for no Carr material... that's why they weren't on speaking terms at the end of the 80's. Gene could've cared less, hell Ace had more songs on Dynasty than Gene and an equal number to Gene on Unmasked. Gene was into the other members singing and writing, showed that they cared I guess.

Back before the original band split up, KISS had a band deal that all profits were split 4-ways...including songwriting. (That is, if you believed the guys like Chris Lendt and Bill Aucoin and Sean Delaney.) So it didn't matter up through DYNASTY who wrote what or who got however-many songs on an album. Gene could've gotten zero of his songs on an album and still got 25%.

After the original guys left and the new guys were brought in, that situation eventually changed. Peter and Ace still "owned shares in KISS" after they were no longer in the band. Ace still got 25% until the year Frehley's Comet came out...and vice versa. Ace waited so long to release his first solo album because he would've had to split his songwriting with the KISS company!

After 86 it was Gene and Paul for themselves. So they were going to make sure they got their individual publishing names on as many songs as possible.

About Ace, since he basically broke the contract,he was held back until the contract was expiring-not to mention that the label that was signing Ace did fold in 1985-so he had to start all over again.

because of the financial turmoil Kiss put themselves into, some of the few personal incomes were songwriting and publishing rights,and so p&G put a tight helm on that.Add the fact tha t htye still have firm gripon how Kiss was supposed to sound.......
One of the major criticism the group did get was,afterLIU , the monotony and routine and clichè of some of the songs in their albums.The albums, the group as whole, would have gained much more variety if there were different styles on it.Nothing too drastic, i think Eric songs ould have added a bit of that and also a new voice.Unfortunatley, shadows of the past,financial distress and personal opinion about their and other people songwriting skills clouded their judgment.