• Vinnie and the KISS contract

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 9:56 am**

I'm curious if any of you would have signed that contract. I see many people attacking Vinnie for not signing it. Some act like Vinnie wanted to be a full and equal partner etc.

The way I look at it I'll put in football terms. Say they got Vinnie in the NFL draft as a 4th round pick. But, his first year, he's rookie of the year etc. The next year (LIU album writing) he's had a Pro Bowl season. Most NFL teams, would renegotiate his contract then and give him a big increase and reward him for his efforts.

This is the guy who SAVED KISS.

But what's KISS do to reward Vinnie. Because of their own financial ineptitude, they cut HIS and ERIC CARR's salary in 1/2. So instead of being given a raise for the great work he's done, he gets his salary cut in 1/2. Then of course the "mutant hotel" they put him up at and other great tactics they tried on him.

This once again shows the stupidity of Gene and Paul and not appreciating what they had.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:03 am**

do you think they cut the salary because they had to pay off Ace and Peter and they lost money on The Elder and Creatures album and tour?

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:12 am**

Bruce did.

I think the main gripe-apart from money- as about the publishing.They did offer a similar contract to mark ,too.

Thatr basically means that if you write an hit song, all the money goes to the owner, even if he didn't contribute one iota.

Unless you were there you couldn't know the reasons why they did split over the contract, but i think the contract was ,more or less, a finacial trap.And Vinnie, rightly or wrongly, thought he deserved more.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:15 am**

yeah. most likely they didn't want to pay vinnie or anyone a big contract which is exactly when they chose someone like Mark. But again I don't think they had the money to pay and keep their lifestyle as well as pay Ace and Peter. Also didn't they loose all their money not too long after ?

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:17 am**

i can see that vv thought that he gave everything to Kiss for the lick it up album (songs he could have used for himself) and then they turn around and give him a lesser wage than the creatures tour .. i could fully understand he would be hurt from that and felt used. I can see that for sure. But again it was way better than what he was getting before Kiss.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:24 am**

Vinnie could still get in touch with them settle out of court and write songs for them

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:26 am**

Vinnie did the correct thing for himself. I can respect that.
History shows the corrupt bullshit that G&P pulled on their employees.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 11:36 am**

I can see both sides to be honest ..and I have never really complained about VV's choice to not join kiss under a low paid contract. I only really start after he left Kiss with the stuff he did.

BUT I do see that if I gave so much to Lick it up I would 'hope' for at least a contract equal to what I had before and with all the behind the scenes financial mess and uncertainty I can see why Kiss basically just said we need a cheap guitar player and drummer (not that what they got was that cheap).

It really was basically destined not to work out in the long run.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:21 pm**

I would have to actually see the contract to comment.,,,, as far as the hotel thing he was making 2 grand a week he could have stayed any where he wanted.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:42 pm**

I think Vin was right to stand his ground, the fact that G & P always bring up the story of how Vin didnt want to sign the contract , well put it this way ... VVI first album makes it very clear why and that should be clear
enough !

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:44 pm**

Amen JJ !!!!

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 12:48 pm**

2K a week would have made me happy in 1983 dollars, and with things the way there were financially I can see the issues Kiss were having. It's all in CK Lendt's book, they were stuff in the 80's.

Vinnie failed to see the bigger picture, as did Gene and Paul, that their relationship was bearing good fruit and was destinced for big things if they could have kept it together.

An underlying problem was Vinnie's sneaky and untrustworthy ways, which plays a big part as well in Gene and Paul's decision, the fantastic music aside it seems they didn't want to have Vinnie in the band any further no matter how good they were together.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:23 pm**

Brainsaw wrote:I'm curious if any of you would have signed that contract. I see many people attacking Vinnie for not signing it. Some act like Vinnie wanted to be a full and equal partner etc.

The way I look at it I'll put in football terms. Say they got Vinnie in the NFL draft as a 4th round pick. But, his first year, he's rookie of the year etc. The next year (LIU album writing) he's had a Pro Bowl season. Most NFL teams, would renegotiate his contract then and give him a big increase and reward him for his efforts.

This is the guy who SAVED KISS.

But what's KISS do to reward Vinnie. Because of their own financial ineptitude, they cut HIS and ERIC CARR's salary in 1/2. So instead of being given a raise for the great work he's done, he gets his salary cut in 1/2. Then of course the "mutant hotel" they put him up at and other great tactics they tried on him.

This once again shows the stupidity of Gene and Paul and not appreciating what they had.

I agree with these statements in principle! With the exception of Mark they never had what I would call a great guitar player again in KISS.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:39 pm**

Slayer wrote:
Brainsaw wrote:I'm curious if any of you would have signed that contract. I see many people attacking Vinnie for not signing it. Some act like Vinnie wanted to be a full and equal partner etc.

The way I look at it I'll put in football terms. Say they got Vinnie in the NFL draft as a 4th round pick. But, his first year, he's rookie of the year etc. The next year (LIU album writing) he's had a Pro Bowl season. Most NFL teams, would renegotiate his contract then and give him a big increase and reward him for his efforts.

This is the guy who SAVED KISS.

But what's KISS do to reward Vinnie. Because of their own financial ineptitude, they cut HIS and ERIC CARR's salary in 1/2. So instead of being given a raise for the great work he's done, he gets his salary cut in 1/2. Then of course the "mutant hotel" they put him up at and other great tactics they tried on him.

This once again shows the stupidity of Gene and Paul and not appreciating what they had.
I agree with these statements in principle! With the exception of Mark they never had what I would call a great guitar player again in KISS.

and even with Mark, he couldn't write to save his life.

St. John was like Carr. He could fill that "role" but being a real contributing member of the band...

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:49 pm**

Genebaby wrote:2K a week would have made me happy in 1983 dollars, and with things the way there were financially I can see the issues Kiss were having. It's all in CK Lendt's book, they were stuff in the 80's.

Vinnie failed to see the bigger picture, as did Gene and Paul, that their relationship was bearing good fruit and was destinced for big things if they could have kept it together.

An underlying problem was Vinnie's sneaky and untrustworthy ways, which plays a big part as well in Gene and Paul's decision, the fantastic music aside it seems they didn't want to have Vinnie in the band any further no matter how good they were together.

I doubt you would have been happy having your salary cut in 1/2.

I think Vinnie saw the big picture (at the time). He saw what his contributions meant to KISS. He knew if he signed that contract, he would be signing his life away. He would be making them millions but he wouldn't be doing any better. He knew he would be contributing as much or more than them and yet, he's still stuck at 1/2 the salary he was getting before and there wasn't incentives built in if they hit milestones he gets a cut of merchandise or anything else.

Animalize (with Vinnie songs) could have been triple platinum or more. They could have been selling 10-12K a night arenas... and Vinnie would be stuck and they'd be holding him to the crappy contract saying...you signed it. You agreed.

Now maybe my memory is shot on somethings but didn't Gene and Paul nix the VV Jackson signature guitar?

They could have done amazing things together. They would have had to swallow some pride and Paul would have had to put his ego in check. But if they could have done that--they would have all been rolling in money back then...

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:53 pm**

I agree with that too but I do think that Mark was a great technician. Vinnie in my opinion had it all but I can't say the same thing about Peter and Ace.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 2:19 pm**

First off... Brainsaw, if you aren't Vinnie, then sorry for jumping the gun.

Yes Gene and Paul are greedy fucks but being in KISS shot Vinnie into the spotlight overnight and took him out of a life of struggling to get by. Yes the contract was probably unfair but in the grand scheme of things Vinnie should've served his time in KISS and continued to further his cause by playing ball for a couple of years. He was lucky to leave on bad terms and still be able to get signed as a a solo artist, so I guess at the end of the day, not signing the KISS contract was a smart move. It's just sucks that the Invasion had to implode shortly afterwards.

There's just so many factors that weighed in and it's all in the past now. The only thing to do now is move forward and make due with what he has... which is more than most as far a career. Focusing on all the shit that went down in the past just keeps him right there... stuck in the past.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:24 pm**

Brainsaw wrote:
Genebaby wrote:2K a week would have made me happy in 1983 dollars, and with things the way there were financially I can see the issues Kiss were having. It's all in CK Lendt's book, they were stuff in the 80's.

Vinnie failed to see the bigger picture, as did Gene and Paul, that their relationship was bearing good fruit and was destinced for big things if they could have kept it together.

An underlying problem was Vinnie's sneaky and untrustworthy ways, which plays a big part as well in Gene and Paul's decision, the fantastic music aside it seems they didn't want to have Vinnie in the band any further no matter how good they were together.

I doubt you would have been happy having your salary cut in 1/2.

I think Vinnie saw the big picture (at the time). He saw what his contributions meant to KISS. He knew if he signed that contract, he would be signing his life away. He would be making them millions but he wouldn't be doing any better. He knew he would be contributing as much or more than them and yet, he's still stuck at 1/2 the salary he was getting before and there wasn't incentives built in if they hit milestones he gets a cut of merchandise or anything else.

Animalize (with Vinnie songs) could have been triple platinum or more. They could have been selling 10-12K a night arenas... and Vinnie would be stuck and they'd be holding him to the crappy contract saying...you signed it. You agreed.

Now maybe my memory is shot on somethings but didn't Gene and Paul nix the VV Jackson signature guitar?

They could have done amazing things together. They would have had to swallow some pride and Paul would have had to put his ego in check. But if they could have done that--they would have all been rolling in money back then...

You have a lot of could of would of should of's , the fact is fair or unfair Vinnie has had little success out side of Kiss before or after . I dont believe G&P had anything to do with the Jackson VV .....
While I am pretty close to giving you a VBLAR tag , I will just ask you this, Say everything is true as you sight it , whats Vinnies excuse from the day he left Kiss and G&P till today all it has been is one epic fail after another despite people bending over backwards to help him.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 3:48 pm**

It is true. G&P didn't let Vinnie have a signature model because they said that there shouldn't be a SPERSTAR in Kiss. They gave the excuse that all four members are equal stars.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:04 pm**

Possibly while in KISS the notion of a signature model may have been disallowed, but not after he left, it was all Vinnie and the guitar companies, one after the other.

In the very early 80's signature guitars were a very new thing. Many artists had custom guitars made, Gene had his Axe Bass, Paul had his Star Guitar, but they weren't signature models available to the public, just customs.

Vinnie got to be the first to use the Randy Rhoads model, which was pretty special for a previously unknown guitarist. He may have wanted his own take on it right away, but he wasn't there for very long so it didn't hinder him much if Gene and Paul were against it.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:32 pm**

Yes agree Paul & Gene treat their hired guns like crap.
Yes I'd be pissed if my salary got cut in half.
But it doesn't mean I'd take it out to on fans.
Ultimately that's what VV did.
Treat his fans the way Paul & Gene treated him.
Their is no reason VV couldn't have had a glorious career.
He could have in theory been bigger than lets say Yngwie,
cause he would have had the KISS Geeks (nanu nanu, make the force be with you)
following him.
Instead he says to himself, 'FUCK THAT!, I'm going to be a low life, cheating, stealing SOB,,,,And when I really want to get my FREAK ON, I'll steal a bunch of hand made guitars from one of the nicest blokes on the planet, I 'll steal money from my most loyal fans & then I'll mount that cheery on my turd cake by beating my wife!. FUCK YER THAT's what I'd do'

http://www.buzzfeed.com/peggy/40-turd-cakes

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:55 pm**

Well. I understand why vv didnt sign a contract but its impossible to know what was in it.
But the shit vv pulled on people after kiss was far worse than that and he tried to have people sign conteacts tgat basically said you work for vv for the rest of your life.
If I was vv I would have agreed to work for 2k a week .. much much more than he has ever earned in his life since.
To be honest I am also not so sure vinnies anamilize tunes were commercial enough to make tge album go double or triple platinum. Certainly not the tunes on vvi album.
If I was vv I would have sucked it up for a few more years but I dont blame him and if he had more luck vvi could have been a platinum selling band.

Posted: **Thu Nov 29, 2012 7:57 pm**

Plus he would have lots of royalties. Vv doesnt think he gets royalties as they all pay for his bankruptcy creditors but he gets royalties still even if its not going to him at the moment.

Posted: **Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:02 am**

Should have had a clause based on estimate earnings for the tour. Tour makes X amount, you're paid this much. Tour makes X+ you're paid more! G and P had to know how good Vinnie was just as much as he knew how tight the money was at the time. Sadly I feel they were as stubborn as each other! Shame really. Who wishes they had a time machine and could go back and slap some sense into ALL of them?

Now, I'm gonna make like a tree and get outta here!

Posted: **Fri Nov 30, 2012 12:25 am**

We dont know what it said. Vv should publish it

Posted: **Tue Dec 04, 2012 6:09 am**

The big problem here is that nobody knows what was in the contract.
The prevailing story...and one that Vinnie even seems to corroborate to a degree...is that they offered a shitty contract and he never signed it.
What should have happened:
- He shouldn't have ever insinuated he was GOING to sign (which is what Gene says, but who knows if that's true)
- He shouldn't have gone into the studio or out on tour without a contract (yes, that means they would've found someone else probably but he would've still had his songs and "dignity")
- If Vinnie was sincere in his negotiations, he should've come back with a list of demands for changes. "I won't sign the contract as it stands, but if you make the following changes I will sign."

But who knows what actually happened. I doubt anyone will ever know the real story. My guess is the truth lies somewhere in the middle with G&P offering a shitty deal that would mostly benefit themselves and Vinnie expecting way more than what is reasonable for an unknown artist in a failing band then reacting poorly when he doesn't get everything he wants.

Posted: **Tue Dec 04, 2012 10:05 am**

shramiac wrote:Should have had a clause based on estimate earnings for the tour. Tour makes X amount, you're paid this much. Tour makes X+ you're paid more! G and P had to know how good Vinnie was just as much as he knew how tight the money was at the time. Sadly I feel they were as stubborn as each other! Shame really. Who wishes they had a time machine and could go back and slap some sense into ALL of them?

Now, I'm gonna make like a tree and get outta here!

Gene and Paul probably with they had. They might still own their songs.

You don't cut the salary in 1/2 of the guy who is your breadwinner. You don't reward the guy who is saving you by treating him that way.

Yeah, cut my salary in half. I'll give up my publishing royalties for a pittance etc. Sure thing.

Posted: **Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:13 am**

You are correct , Brainsaw.

Posted: **Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:18 pm**

poserboy71 wrote:You are correct , Brainsaw.

Yes I agree too. Gene & Paul don't see it that way. THEY ARE THE MIGHTY KISS....blah, blah, blah. THEY WERE SUPERHERO's in a shit ass movie. They poured their vital fluids into a vat of ink to make comic books. THEY MAKE U PAY $1500 TO MEET THEIR relic old saggy asses. YES, THEY ARE KISS! Full of their self importance.
Then again, Vinnie learnt well how to be a KUNT & in turn treated his friends, family, band members, business associates & fans the way KISS treated him. And from what I know, this behavior was pre existing, prior to joining the MIGHTY MASKED ONES...KISS!!!

Posted: **Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:20 pm**

It would be great if KISS or any band was always "all for one, one for all," but reality pretty much negates that. To bring in an unknown at that point, no questions asked, and make him an equal partner is just asking for it when that new partner turns out to be in it only for himself. A contract is needed to cover their asses.

Sure, it was shitty of them to cut his (and Eric's) salary in half, but if they were suffering money-wise, then it's just like any company that lays their workers off when the company starts suffering. At least KISS didn't "lay them off" so to speak... just cut the salaries (which is still way more than what a working musician usually makes).

Posted: **Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:24 pm**

First we lose Vinnie . Now we've lost Twinkies. FUCK MY LIFE !!!!

Posted: **Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:06 pm**

He may have been on half salary but it was still bettee than sessioning. Like I said I have seen some contracts from late 90s vv waa trying to get people to sign which are crazy. But I do criticize him for not signing. But suing for unpaid wages decades later was not a great idea.

Posted: **Tue Dec 04, 2012 9:44 pm**

Brainsaw wrote:I see many people attacking Vinnie for not signing it. Some act like Vinnie wanted to be a full and equal partner.

PinkWiz wrote:To bring in an unknown at that point, no questions asked, and make him an equal partner is just asking for it when that new partner turns out to be in it only for himself.

Okay, I stand corrected, Vinnie... er, uh... I mean, Brainsaw DID claim Vinnie never wanted to be an equal member... just wanted his fair share... my bad.

Posted: **Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:06 pm**

Its clear they only wanted vinnie at a low rate. Obviously they were not that much in love with him to pay more.

Posted: **Wed Dec 05, 2012 5:48 am**

It's clear that G&P want to keep every possible penny they can and put it in their own pocket. That's fine as a business practice, but it gets out of hand when it begins to hurt the employees that earn you that money. The part of the equation we do not have is how much financial trouble G&P were in when they cut the salaries. If it was "either cut the salaries or KISS goes out of business", then they did what they had to do. If it was "cut their salaries so that you can maintain your greedy lifestyle" then they are just self-absorbed dicks.

Posted: **Wed Dec 05, 2012 6:55 am**

Kiss as a band was pretty financially strapped at that time. Nothing was selling.

It's been years since I read CK Lendt's excellent book but I would like a refresher.

I think I remember G&P being told that around Animalize that they must tour to try and make money that way to stay afloat.

Bad business deals, a drop in popularity and fighting with your record label are bad things.

Posted: **Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:20 am**

Yeah they were low on cash.
The guy who wrote kisd n tell (I think) said some stuff about this period and I dont think kiss were that thrilled with vv as a person enought to offer him any more money.

Posted: **Wed Dec 05, 2012 7:24 am**

Kiss were not a fincial power house. Some creatures gigs were cancelled due to low sales.. 3000 people showed up in st louis. They lost lots of savings on bad invedtments plus they were paying ace and peter off and the future was very uncertain.. how in the hell could they offer more than 2k per week to vv?

Posted: **Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:09 am**

doublev2 wrote:Kiss were not a fincial power house. Some creatures gigs were cancelled due to low sales.. 3000 people showed up in st louis. They lost lots of savings on bad invedtments plus they were paying ace and peter off and the future was very uncertain.. how in the hell could they offer more than 2k per week to vv?

Except that was pre-cut in salary. He was making $2000 and his new contract they wanted him to sign his life away on--cut that to $1000 a week.

Posted: **Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:12 am**

I agree with Brainsaw on this one.
When are we gonna talk ?

Posted: **Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:15 am**

poserboy71 wrote:It is true. G&P didn't let Vinnie have a signature model because they said that there shouldn't be a SPERSTAR in Kiss. They gave the excuse that all four members are equal stars.

They should have embraced it. They should have hoped, he'd make some money from that deal so then they could have paid him less. Or they should have allowed it and said Vinnie could keep 50% of the money that came in from that deal and 50% went to KISS Company.

Posted: **Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:28 am**

Well said !

Posted: **Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:32 am**

And for anyone who still thinks Vinnie was getting $4000 a week cut down to $2000...

Also on the suit scene, as previously reported by MTV News, former guitarist Vinnie Vincent, who played with Kiss from 1982 to 1984, is suing Kiss for millions in (allegedly) owed royalties and other payments. He alleges that Kiss unsuccessfully tried to make him sign an "unconscionable contract," that cut his $2,000-a-week salary in half, and making him live in a hotel frequented by addicts and prostitutes." Vincent also wants assorted insults retracted.

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/143086 ... uits.jhtml

Posted: **Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:36 am**

Yes indeed... u would think KISS would've loved the idea of having the flashiest guitarist on the block... since that was the hip thing at the time.

Posted: **Wed Dec 05, 2012 10:56 am**

not sure how you know he was making 1000 per week. I don't think the vv model was ready while VV was in Kiss anyway to worry about all this. VV was in the band officially from fall 1982 until spring 84. I dont think they would have had anytime to make and market a Vinnie guitar.

Posted: **Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:16 am**

Dino, There was TALK of the VVV Jackson guitar with Grover.
Kiss (G&P) nixed the idea.

Posted: **Wed Dec 05, 2012 11:44 pm**

Brainsaw wrote:I'm curious if any of you would have signed that contract. I see many people attacking Vinnie for not signing it. Some act like Vinnie wanted to be a full and equal partner etc.

The way I look at it I'll put in football terms. Say they got Vinnie in the NFL draft as a 4th round pick. But, his first year, he's rookie of the year etc. The next year (LIU album writing) he's had a Pro Bowl season. Most NFL teams, would renegotiate his contract then and give him a big increase and reward him for his efforts.

This is the guy who SAVED KISS.

But what's KISS do to reward Vinnie. Because of their own financial ineptitude, they cut HIS and ERIC CARR's salary in 1/2. So instead of being given a raise for the great work he's done, he gets his salary cut in 1/2. Then of course the "mutant hotel" they put him up at and other great tactics they tried on him.

This once again shows the stupidity of Gene and Paul and not appreciating what they had.

Sure, mediation was available in 1982. We are talking about a contract with KISS. The big time.

Posted: **Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:07 am**

Brainsaw wrote:
shramiac wrote:Should have had a clause based on estimate earnings for the tour. Tour makes X amount, you're paid this much. Tour makes X+ you're paid more! G and P had to know how good Vinnie was just as much as he knew how tight the money was at the time. Sadly I feel they were as stubborn as each other! Shame really. Who wishes they had a time machine and could go back and slap some sense into ALL of them?

Now, I'm gonna make like a tree and get outta here!
Gene and Paul probably with they had. They might still own their songs.

You don't cut the salary in 1/2 of the guy who is your breadwinner. You don't reward the guy who is saving you by treating him that way.

Maybe it wasn't fair. $2,000 a week in 1983 was like $4,600 a week by the current dollar rate. VV was getting 8,000 a month by the 1983 dollar rate, and $18,000 a month by the current dollar rate. Gene and Paul may have got the lion's share, but Vinnie was getting good money. He may not have been treated as fair as Paul, but $8,000 a month in 1983 wasn't like getting chained to the wall and whipped.

Yeah, cut my salary in half. I'll give up my publishing royalties for a pittance etc. Sure thing.

Posted: **Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:38 am**

Cutting wage in half.. bad hotel... this was a sign that kiss didnt want vinnie. Read the signs.. sorry to say but it seems like they didnt care if he stayed in the band.

Posted: **Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:40 am**

KissMyAss wrote: Maybe it wasn't fair. $2,000 a week in 1983 was like $4,600 a week by the current dollar rate. VV was getting 8,000 a month by the 1983 dollar rate, and $18,000 a month by the current dollar rate. Gene and Paul may have got the lion's share, but Vinnie was getting good money. He may not have been treated as fair as Paul, but $8,000 a month in 1983 wasn't like getting chained to the wall and whipped.

How many times has this been covered and yet people still keep going to back to but he was getting $2000 a week?! NOT WHEN IT'S CUT IN HALF!

So even if we go by your inflation adjusted monthly rate 8K=$18K. Why didn't you use the cut in half figure? Why aren't you saying how great $9K a month would be today?

Tommy Thayer getting $25K a show and Vinnie getting $9K a month.

That seems "fair" for what they contributed to the band etc.... sure!

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