Kiss and the knuckle heads

Post by **Genebaby** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:43 pm

I listened to a lot of Kiss today and yesterday and thoroughly enjoyed it.

I remembered what a great, great band they are and I am sad for people who don't get into them. So many good songs.

I came to remember Gene referring to an ex member as a knuckle head, which rings fairly true.

It's not just Vinnie though. I think if you managed to be in Kiss but are no longer in the band, then by and large you are a knuckle head. You lost something huge.

Bruce Kulick, Mark St John and Eric Carr are exceptions. Bruce had the reunion come along and ended his Kiss journey. Mark developed and illness and Eric passed away. If Eric Singer wasn't in the band today he'd be an exception too, but thanks to Peter not being up to the task he is back in. More power to him.

So, when you take it down you have left the three guys who were in Kiss and had their own make up and persona. What a friggin' honor. Who wouldn't give their left nut to have been their own Kiss character.

Let's take a look at the players:

Peter Criss. First to leave Kiss. Well, made to leave Kiss. We know Kiss tried their hardest to avoid losing an original member, what with the special requirements required to be one, so clearly Peter had to be failing pretty bad to be ousted as a public member. Unable to appreciate what he had, his drumming gone down the tubes he was let go.

Ace Frehley. Second to leave and again unable to appreciate the magnitude of what he had stumbled upon. His work ethic was polar opposite Gene and Paul so he had done quite well, but his problems and laziness caught up with him and he was gone.

Vinnie Vincent. The Wiz. If you were to believe what Vinnie says of himself then you would have to wonder why he is still not in Kiss to this day, kicking our asses and the other and members with his fantastic song writing. But no. He was kicked out so clearly there was trouble in Paradise.

Peter and Ace would get another bit of the cherry and would fail again. Unable to do what's required to be in band as big as Kiss. What's the missing ingredient? Professionalism. The show must go on. Play your ass off. Be reliable. Be dependable. Be on time!! (yes Ace, that's for you, Sydney 2001, second night, thanks for making the band late you moron.)

At the end of the day, Kiss wins and everyone else loses.

Of the three Vinnie had the ability to burn the brightest and eclipse his former band but he burned out all to quickly. Now there is little chance we'll see new music, he's too busy with his message board for that. He must be the only musician of his caliber that has to run his own message board. Don't mention Spyder/Chris/Eric, he's as real as Santa Claus. When Spyder says something to you it's Vinnie who is addressing you, make no mistake.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:54 pm

Perfect!

727 · Post by **727** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:58 pm

why doesn't he make a youtube statement letting people know if he plays or writes music anymore. we know he has old stuff but what about vinnie now? I think its correct to think that he doesn't play or doesn't intend on anyone hearing him play.

Brooklyn_Born · Post by **Brooklyn_Born** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 9:59 pm

You all read it...Spyder is Vinnie Vincent. Let's get the truth out there people! Vinnie has denied this on double v forum but there is no spyder... It is all moderated & administrated by Vinnie Vincent. One guy/two identities.

Post by **Genebaby** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:01 pm

727, he has no time to play. He polices that board night and day, that's not what someone who is creative does. That's what a shut-in does.

727 · Post by **727** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:05 pm

Lets hope he is ok . it weird he has a youtube channel with no music on it. thats a first from a musician. he could put a rough recording on it and would get in all the media sites.

Brooklyn_Born · Post by **Brooklyn_Born** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 10:22 pm

Is that Airwolf??

727 · Post by **727** » Sat Jul 23, 2011 11:48 pm

Airwolf man.

jesternjeff · Post by **jesternjeff** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:25 am

It truly is bizarre to see all the crazy stuff surrounding Vinnie, there's so much out there. Love him or hate him
everything is so distorted ! I think thats what gets most of us going as far as interest in him. The problem w/ that is, it over shadows his music or lac of. One will never know what could have become of him ! I know GENEBABY say's Ace was slacking and lazy but, at least he never stopped putting music out. His latest effort Anomaly is put right up there next to Sonic Boom in my books, in fact I like it a bit more. I guess my question is , wouldn't Vinnie be the lazy one ? Sitting in his swamp like home on his computer and painting his nails !

Brooklyn_Born · Post by **Brooklyn_Born** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 6:47 am

Ok Anomaly is definitely better than sonic boom it was a labor of love for Ace, he put some real work into that

I was lucky enough to catch him live in feb 2010 when he toured in Australia and he was great!

727- I loved airwolf as a kid, what a show! Great music too!

Post by **Genebaby** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:04 am

Ace is also a love/hate thing with me. His actual personality is very, very, very, very lazy. He had a LOT of help from the others in Frehley's Comet to have albums out in the 80's, and then he finally released Anomoly which I haven't listened to in a while. His show last year was great but very unprofessional, he is just not up to standard to be in Kiss, which his his own choosing.

Vinnie isn't lazy, he obviously has other problems/issues which make him unable to do most things a musician should be doing. Ace doesn't have those hang ups (ie, being shot at a gas station) so with enough help and prodding he will get something out eventually.

I've read a lot more on Ace than Peter or Vinnie. The same books about them would be very interesting reading I'm sure.

jesternjeff · Post by **jesternjeff** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:38 am

Frehley's Comet was good for the music at the time, I think Trouble Walking was a step above the Comet stuff and Anomaly was a great come back to top shape form ! BROOKLYN BORN let's not forget, it wasn't only a labor of love, Ace was also sober ! I seen Ace on the Anomaly tour and although not as extravagant a show, the music was tighter then Kiss was w/ Thayer on guitar ( at the time ) and he played his ass off ! GENEBABY you do have a valid point however, financially how hard is it now a days to make a website and put some music on it for cash downloads ? Still have to think he is lazy sorry ! 727, you got me looking for Airwolf torrents ! lol

Post by **Genebaby** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:44 am

Jeff, your Ace show was tight? In Sydney his band was tight but Ace was super sloppy. That is Ace so it is what it is.

Vinnie seems to have debilitating issues which don't let him do too much or get out of the house. Soon he will only exist online.

jesternjeff · Post by **jesternjeff** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 8:55 am

GENEBABY I know what you mean about Ace's sloppiness and yeah thats Ace just being Ace ! Like he says," rock n' roll. " I think Ace attitude speaks rock n' roll !

There's no doubt in my mind Vinnie is online in more ways then one ....... wink !

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 9:14 am

Man I must be tone deaf! Anomaly is only just marginally better than Cat 1 to my ears!!! Beyond sloppiness when soloing and shocking out of tune singing by his daughter. Only good thing was his nice acoustic tone.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:25 am

I think Sonic Boom edges out Anomaly by a hair because Sonic Boom is a more focused, cohesive album. Production, writing, style and performance on Anomaly is kinda all over the place. As individual songs I like most of them but as a collection they just don't mesh together. (Just my opinion.)

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 10:46 am

On our LIZARDS FROM AFAR blog I wrote up my impressions of the two albums when they came out:

Ace Frehley Anomaly -
http://lizardsfromafar.com/2009/09/21/r ... y-anomaly/

KISS Sonic Boom -
http://lizardsfromafar.com/2009/10/08/r ... onic-boom/

...and since I mentioned LIZARDS FROM AFAR, I am contractually obligated to beg everyone to download our songs and listen to them. (We post them for free...so have at it!)
http://www.reverbnation.com/tunepak/3367897

jesternjeff · Post by **jesternjeff** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:25 pm

erg2 wrote:I think Sonic Boom edges out Anomaly by a hair because Sonic Boom is a more focused, cohesive album. Production, writing, style and performance on Anomaly is kinda all over the place. As individual songs I like most of them but as a collection they just don't mesh together. (Just my opinion.)

They are close. what disappoints me about Sonic Boom are the Ace rip off licks ! Thayer did a great job at it and it just goes to prove Ace is the kiss sound to which they had to mimic w/ Thayer. I dont think the analog analogy Paul talks about often being better as far as production. If that were the case then why w/ the new album are the going to pro tools ? I do agree w/ Ace's album sorta being all over the place but, w/ songs like Pain In The Neck who cares !

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:39 pm

I agree that Ace is the true KISS sound. Listen to the Wicked Lester versions and then how they came to life with Ace. I think Gene, Paul & Tommy realize that THAT sound is what made/makes KISS different than any other band. The real mix is Gene & Paul's songs with Ace bringing it all together. (And the occasional Ace song.)
I also agree that the "analog" thing is just pomp and circumstance. Having Tommy add the Ace sound to Gene and Paul songs was what made Sonic Boom work. Recording it analog or digital wouldn't have made or broke it.

jesternjeff · Post by **jesternjeff** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 12:49 pm

erg2 wrote:I agree that Ace is the true KISS sound. Listen to the Wicked Lester versions and then how they came to life with Ace. I think Gene, Paul & Tommy realize that THAT sound is what made/makes KISS different than any other band. The real mix is Gene & Paul's songs with Ace bringing it all together. (And the occasional Ace song.)
I also agree that the "analog" thing is just pomp and circumstance. Having Tommy add the Ace sound to Gene and Paul songs was what made Sonic Boom work. Recording it analog or digital wouldn't have made or broke it.

Well put !

Cernex · Post by **Cernex** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 2:59 pm

Just as a side note, I'm NOT that sure about Mark St. John not being a knuckle head. Kissfaq's article about him seem to heavily imply that his illness, although authentic, was just the tip of the iceberg and that they DID thought of sacking him at least once mid-recording, mainly due to the fact he overshadowed them (or "tried but failed" if you ask Gene) on the Animalize recordings (if that's to be believed). His illness just came to make the sacking easier.

Since Mark passed away on 2007, I guess we'll never know for sure.

Post by **Genebaby** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:22 pm

I am giving Mark the benefit of the doubt. He had the least output after Kiss than any other member and what he did put out, White Tiger that I remember now, was pretty, pretty bad.

Ace and Peter made Kiss special in the 70's. You need the drumming of Peter and the guitar work of Ace, with the songs of them all together. It was a special recipe.

I'm not sure but I think part of Peter's trouble of sticking with Kiss, apart from personal differences, is that he just can't drum too well any more?

Brooklyn_Born · Post by **Brooklyn_Born** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:29 pm

Peter Criss turns 64 this year and went on record this year at an event that he attended with Ace stating that he didn't want to be in his sixties wearing spandex and makeup...

Fair comment...

Post by **Genebaby** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:34 pm

That could easily be jelousy talking and the fact that he probably can't cut it. Nothing against him for that, it's a fact of aging. Eric, though his style/feel is different, is going strong. He gives me the impression he'll be ablt to play in his 60's.

Bobby Rock too most likely!!! In fact, of the VVI members him and Dana are probably the only ones today who can still do what they did in the 80's.

Brooklyn_Born · Post by **Brooklyn_Born** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 4:52 pm

It really is Survival of the Fittest...

Post by **Genebaby** » Sun Jul 24, 2011 5:01 pm

Yep, gotta keep those chops up!!!

Cernex · Post by **Cernex** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:02 am

Genebaby wrote:I am giving Mark the benefit of the doubt. He had the least output after Kiss than any other member and what he did put out, White Tiger that I remember now, was pretty, pretty bad.

Well, I dunno. White Tiger was bad, sure, but "Magic Bullet Theory" was quite pretty awesome.

[youtube][/youtube]

Post by **Genebaby** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 11:02 am

That's ok, sounds very Animalize-y. I have never listened to guitar instrumental albums, by anyone.

One thing I realised as I was thinking about this thread this morning. Of all the living ex-Kiss members Vinnie is coming in last in terms of output.

Even lazy Ace will be doing some shows soon, I got an email about it.

Vinnie is being beaten by Ace and Peter!! Goes to show talent isn't everything.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 12:37 pm

I looked for years to get the White Tiger album only to find out how bad it was when I finally found a copy. High school lyrics, 4-track home-studio recording quality and a lead singer squeezing every note out of his nose. So disappointed.
Even though it was terrible, my complete-ist nature required I buy any of his albums. I'm pleased to say that the later albums were much better. I was a little surprised how "80s" sounding they were lyrically, style and production...but I still dug them.
Mark St John Project = some listenable metal tunes
Magic bullet theory = I don't like instrumental albums either, but there are a couple of killer tracks.

jesternjeff · Post by **jesternjeff** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 1:47 pm

Cernex wrote:
Genebaby wrote:I am giving Mark the benefit of the doubt. He had the least output after Kiss than any other member and what he did put out, White Tiger that I remember now, was pretty, pretty bad.

Well, I dunno. White Tiger was bad, sure, but "Magic Bullet Theory" was quite pretty awesome.

[youtube][/youtube]

Forgot about this, really good stuff ! To bad we didnt get something more out of this guy potential was there ! Didnt he go on to work w/ Peter after this ?

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:19 pm

Yes, in a band called the KEEP. Demo's of this are available on the net

Cernex · Post by **Cernex** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 2:43 pm

Slayer wrote:Yes, in a band called the KEEP. Demo's of this are available on the net

And they really aren't all that good, being honest.

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:26 pm

mark and peter worked together for a while, but, since their demo was rejected by record companies, Mark left the group,since he needed to support himself.He was left go not only for medical reasons, but also, it seems, for,huh, creative differences.One man who worked for the band also said that G&P didn´t like his attitude.On a funny note, he met Vinnie a few years before, when grover jackson-it seems- presented V to Mark and Holdsworth as the "new Kiss guitarist".IN Mark´s words(don´t forget that he was playng completely different music)"Kiss, what a crappy band.Little i knew..."(Laughs).

Thw white tiger r ecord suffered for poor productioon and a horrible mix.MIUchake Wagener offered to remix the album( he did remix the first song), but it was too late.The album sold 50000 copies with no promotion at all.The singer was the former(part time...three months, LOL) Sabbath singer...

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Mon Jul 25, 2011 10:16 pm

I've never been able to find demos from THE KEEP. Perhaps one of the fine members here could post some links...

Cernex · Post by **Cernex** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:48 am

erg2 wrote:I've never been able to find demos from THE KEEP. Perhaps one of the fine members here could post some links...

Consider it done. Here's one:

[youtube][/youtube]

NOTE: I actually think this is not half-bad.

jesternjeff · Post by **jesternjeff** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:56 am

Yikes !

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 6:24 am

Gee, I can't imagine WHY none of the record companies snatched up The Keep with such well performed recordings such as this. [sarcasm]

Not this recording of it, but this song was on the Mark St. John Project CD. It's a much better arrangement and recording of the song.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 3:32 pm

I dig it! Mark St. John Shreds and was the second best guitarist from a technical standpoint to ever play in Kiss after Vincent Cusano.

727 · Post by **727** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 4:17 pm

Mark St John did some great solos. He has a unique sound. Some of the solos on the kiss record is really very good I think. He just isn't a song writer like Vinnie and VV has that something extra, but I agree with slayer. Second best Kiss guitar player.

Brooklyn_Born · Post by **Brooklyn_Born** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 7:57 pm

I loved Marks work on animalize!! I'll never forget the first time i got the vinyl lp home placed it on the record player started playing it & hearing the opening of "I've had Enough" it was fucking great!!

birnie · Post by **birnie** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:34 pm

Animalize was the album that got me into kiss......well it was the song Under The Gun first and then the whole album.......yes, it's kicks ass !!!!

Post by **Genebaby** » Tue Jul 26, 2011 9:42 pm

Just not as much ass as Lick It Up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Cernex · Post by **Cernex** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:47 am

Well, I wouldn't know. For whatever reason, I've always thought that Mark Norton was (and is) the best technical guitar player they ever had. But VV was, by far, a more "complete" package: he could write, he could shredd like no other, he could actually sing (let's not forget St. John is the only KISS member in history that didn't sing backup vocals), and he has/had quite the style. Norton had a lot more more ability to play any kind of music under any sort of situation, but when you really boil it down, St. John never really had a style of his own and JUST really couldn't write.

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:56 am

Mark sang many back vocals on Animalize-including HOF(there were him,paul and eric), he wasn´t allowed to offer song for the record, and, judging from his solo efforts, he was more confy writing instrumental songs that were more in mold of his musical tastes..

727 · Post by **727** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 3:58 am

totally agree with that cernex... Mark St John was so fluid. I don't think you can really put Norton and Cusano up against each other as they are too different... Its seems like Vinnie isn't afraid to respect but bend the rules for emotion and speed purposes where maybe Mark is more within the rules but very fluid in my opinion..... Technically St John is very good but any day of the week apart from monday I would book my ticket to see Vinnie (unless he doesn't invite fans).... Both are technical its just algebra equations difference. I hate to compare great guitarists btw.

727 · Post by **727** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:00 am

anyone have a favourite Mark solo while in kiss please post it.

Cernex · Post by **Cernex** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 4:56 am

ankh wrote:Mark sang many back vocals on Animalize-including HOF(there were him,paul and eric), he wasn´t allowed to offer song for the record, and, judging from his solo efforts, he was more confy writing instrumental songs that were more in mold of his musical tastes..

Really? That's weird: if I remember correctly, he was never credited for backing vocals on the animalize album.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:31 am

Great post Genebaby.

I believe Mark was just (what Gene termed) a "knucklehead" after the fact... his bitterness came after Bruce took his job. I think Mark would've played along with whatever Gene and Paul had in store for him just to keep his job. The problem was just by default he didn't really fit into Kiss and I believe Paul and Gene realized this after recording Animalize with Mark and the ailment was a good excuse (although very real) for the public. If you've ever heard the interviews from 1988 with Mark, he's very bitter and even suggest that Bruce would've sucked Paul's dick if he asked him!

Also, Mark, Eric and Paul did the backing vocals for Animalize. Mark confirmed this in that same interview and mentioned that Paul would always want his vocals a bit louder than his or Eric's.

Mark was definitely the most "schooled" as far as technical ability and scope but as mentioned, Vinnie was a killer songwriter (my favorite quality even above his guitar playing... cause you gotta have the song to to be able to shred for in the first place). Vinnie just gave Kiss a kind of "edginess" and I remember seeing a Creatures photo in makeup when I was 11 and thinking they looked kinda "dangerous." Ever since then I've been intrigued with Cusano...

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 5:53 am

As a drummer and not a guitarist, please take my opinion with a grain of salt:

Animalize was the album that got me back into KISS after Peter had left the band. I later went back to discover COTN & LIU and the magic which was Vinnie Vincent.

I don't think the years have been kind to Animalize. I think in general, with a couple of exceptions, the songs are poorly written and composed. Gene's songs are mostly atrocious.

Having listened to Animalize and Mark's other works (White Tiger, St John Project, Magic Bullet) and the live stuff on Youtube hundreds of times...I have to disagree with everyone. I think Mark's playing feels mechanical and confined. He's unable to change his "style" to suit a song. Kulick is so good that he can almost disguise his playing to match someone else's.
Listen to the instrumentals on Magic Bullet. They are cool, but the songs that are supposedly of different genres are still overwhelmed by his choppy, mechanical, metal style.

20 years after Animalize he releases a metal album that sounded like it was recorded in 1988...

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Wed Jul 27, 2011 6:14 pm

I find Mark very mechanical too!

Sadly it's how I play too!! And definitely not as well as Mark!