Poor planning caused the box set disaster

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 12:36 am

The box set was too extravagent to manufacture.

Here is the logic

Limited edition suggests a low volume.

Since greater quantity= greater savings to the customer

To keep pricing realistic in low volume production, cost must be controlled.

Prepaid orders suggest flexible production.

Flexibility and low volume mean job order (or custom) costing.

Here are the steps:

Step 1: Predict the cost of production

Step 2: Negotiate price and decide whether to pursue it.

Step 3: Schedule production.

The letter suggests not all costs (studio time) were accounted for before step two. Meaning he must have relied on speculation of the cost of production.

Then, this letter suggests that he did not account for "Murphy's law" or the cost of a screw up in production.

I would also like to point out one of the most common bookkeeping incompetencies occurs in prepaid order. It seems as though many bookkeepers almost gravitate towards crediting "revenue" when any order is received. In prepaid orders, this is wrong. A liability account must be created called "unearned revenue". This account tracks the goods the company owes the customer. Sadly, revenue recognition is an accounting principle. Unearned revenue is cited as the most overlooked liability account.

Not to scare you away from prepaid orders for life

And if you pay anything in advance (rent, insurance, services) ; keep the money orders, any receipts, the agreement, etc. Make the adjustments. Subtract the services, goods, month of rent from the amount of initial payment. Never trust in the competence of the bookkeeper. Neither education or experience will fix incompetence.

Sad, but true. Don't ever trust in a degree, experience, or a position. Period. My rule of thumb for everything.

See you. Got to take a shower, put on my face, get my coffee, and go.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 3:58 am

I love those letters. Such an amazingly large amount of bullshit.

And, if the stuff was manufactured like he claims, think about how there are box-set components (packaging, cassettes, etc) either sitting in a storage facility somewhere OR rotting at the dump. (Along with my $120+)

Streetbeat · Post by **Streetbeat** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:54 am

let's give the man a little more time remember he is a perfectionist
maybe 2032

Streetbeat · Post by **Streetbeat** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:57 am

the foreign terrotories anxious to distribute the archives .....all over again 2011
" thanks to the international buyers" on the namm vv boot

"we at metaluna" --- himself

ozone73 · Post by **ozone73** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:55 am

I'm not one of the people who sent him money for the box-set but I would love to hear his explanation of what happend. I'm sure he'll never make any kind of statement about it though.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:20 am

yeah he still uses the same wording with the foreign terrotories . its 100% bullshit from start to finish. The advertising of the Guitar at NAMM is in the exact same tone. He talks like he has a team which he doesn't too. I did hear his wife was helping out (just like at NAMM).

He did suggest on his board that Kiss were to blame because he had to spend his time suing them to get the money he was owed so he could put this out.. almost like saying if Kiss paid him everyone would have had their boxsets.

He should have been sued and served time for this and he is damn lucky he didn't.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:28 am

Here is some information on managerial accounting, so it is not such a foreign language. The powerpoint presentations should help

http://fac-staff.seattleu.edu/dtinius/w ... utions.pdf

http://www.letslearnfinance.com/advanta ... sting.html

Advantages and Disadvantages of Job Costing

Job costing refers to a costing method under which the various costs such as material and labor cost related to production of a good or services are allocated to a product or service and then the price of that product or service is quoted to a customer. Given below are some of the advantages and disadvantages of job costing –

Advantages of Job Costing
1.Job order costing offers a detailed analysis in the form of the costs of materials, labor and overheads and therefore it helps the company in allocating overheads at a predetermined rate.
2.Bit helps the company in determining the profitability of a job, which in turn will help the company in deciding whether to take a particular job or not.
3.Job order costing facilitates the estimation of the cost of a similar job and therefore it helps the company in avoiding duplication of work because if company has to quote price for a similar job than it can quote it on the basis of previous job costing method.

Disadvantages of Job Costing
1.Job order costing needs a great deal of clerical work in recording of transactions related to it and therefore many companies tend to avoid this method of costing.
2.Since overheads are allocated on estimation this method may not yield 100 percent accurate result and may lead to errors while quoting the price for a product or service.

Process Systems
Repetitive operations
Homogeneous products
High production volume
Low product flexibility
High standardization

Job Order Systems
Custom orders
Heterogeneous products
Low production volume
High product flexibility
Low to medium standardization
http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0 ... tions.html

http://highered.mcgraw-hill.com/sites/0 ... tions.html
______________________________________________________________________________________________
http://www.tunstallorg.com/2010/12/08/t ... nce-sheet/

Another less obvious asset is prepaids. Prepaid Expenses are amounts that have been paid but the benefit of that payment hasn’t been realized yet. An example would be an annual insurance contract that was paid in advance. The portion of the payment that hasn’t been used can be considered an asset (Prepaid Expense) at the Balance Sheet date.

Liabilities are obligations of the business. Basically, amounts owed to others at the Balance Sheet date. The most common liability is a ‘Payable’ aka Accounts Payable (A/P), Notes Payable, Grants payable, etc. It represents the amount that is payable to another party.

A commonly overlooked liability is Unearned Revenue. An example of this is the Insurance Company that wrote an annual policy and received the full payment upfront. Since they haven’t delivered on the insurance services yet, the amount they collected but haven’t serviced is a liability (Unearned Revenue) on the Balance Sheet.

" Unearned revenue is the same thing as deferred revenue. In accounting, unearned revenue is a liability. It is a liability because even though a company has received payment from the customer, the money is potentially refundable and thus not recognized as revenue" (resource: http://smallbusiness.chron.com/definiti ... 25716.html)

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 11:46 am

I privided websites in the grey. They are also references. I just want you to know that I am not the author of the information with websites below or above.

If you need any more information, let me know. Revenue recognition principle......anything that needs clarifying?

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 4:49 pm

What's that got to do with taking fans money and not refunding it or giving them what they paid for and actually getting rude with people about asking for a refund?

Portillo · Post by **Portillo** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:06 pm

Streetbeat wrote:let's give the man a little more time remember he is a perfectionist
maybe 2032

Dead on arrival.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 7:15 pm

vv can not

1. play in a band
2. run a band
3. run a business
4. be trusted with money or what he advertises

the only thing he could maybe do is be a studio session player for a short time or better still write tunes on his own at home and have someone other than himself sell them for him.

anything else is a major problem as we have seen.

Portillo · Post by **Portillo** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 8:26 pm

doublev2 wrote:vv can not

1. play in a band
2. run a band
3. run a business
4. be trusted with money or what he advertises

the only thing he could maybe do is be a studio session player for a short time or better still write tunes on his own at home and have someone other than himself sell them for him.

anything else is a major problem as we have seen.

I think that Vinnie has invented a new form of mental disorder or illness. He is one of a kind.

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:30 pm

I call that disorder 'planet I syndrome'. It works like this; 'I, Me, I, Me, Me, Me, I, I, I, the universe revolves around my stinking assI, I, Me.' That's basically it in a nut shell. The cure. Give yourself an uppercut to the lower jaw. If that doesn't work, it will make other on lookers feel better.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue Aug 07, 2012 9:55 pm

Exactly. And the worst thing you can do to vv is pump up his ego anymore than he has it. It bursts with just one compliment. You would actually think that he has so much to prove he would get his shit together.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 12:27 pm

doublev2 wrote:What's that got to do with taking fans money and not refunding it or giving them what they paid for and actually getting rude with people about asking for a refund?

Alot. Let me define the purpose of an unearned revenue account: it tracks what the company owes customers in services, goods, and REFUNDS. Not knowing how much you owe customers in refunds complicates things. Don't you think? Most companies keep records outside the general ledger, but not all..

Pissing off customers is not a business strategy. Why pay fixed and variable costs to lose customers? Businesses have an incentive for keeping customers happy. Keeping customers means becoming a successful business.This box set disaster ruined him. His customers were FANS. This is double trouble. Everyone in business knows unhappy customers are an angry mob...If you have a "name" it's twice as rational. His name is worth more than a $120 per CD. Think about how much he makes off each signature guitar. He must have known as a former member of KISS his name is worth something...and keeping it that way is pretty important. Do you really think Vinnie Vincent doesn't know his low profile days are gone?

My guess is that he ran out of cash and doesn't have the records in his ledgers to know what he owes to customers. It is a good alternative explanation, don't you think?

Maybe some of the fans that kept receipts should make copies, and send him a letter. It looks as though some kept the letters. The envelopes are probably worth more than the letters. The letters can be downloaded. The envelopes have the name and address of customers. Documentation. Money order slips, receipts, envelopes....old credit card bills charged with Metaluna's name on them. Copies of checks. Banking information is handy. The fans need to let him know, "here is proof that you owe me $120." That was 1997, and it may not be possible for all customers...but the pack rats that never throw anything away? I am guilty of having boxes of receipts in my closet. If fans just assume it was a white collar crime, they won't try...and may actually throw away documentation redeemable for $120.

I don't know if you bought a box set. I didn't, but I want to remind people pessimism has its value. Vinnie probably thinks selling his signature guitars is worth more than a measley $120. Yeah, I'm pretty certain of that. He probably makes 10x as much off the guitars. No need not to remind him of it. Though he probably knows, it never hurts to keep the incentives fresh in someone's mind.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:00 pm

Of course angry fans aren't good for Vinnie. But they are good for his enemies, eh? Explaining this situation with business knowledge is "weird and irrelevant". How convenient.

Streetbeat · Post by **Streetbeat** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 1:23 am

vinnievincentboxsetscam.com

THE TRUTH COMES TO LIGHT
ALL THE LETTERS
ALL THE RECEIPTS
EVERYTHING IN JUST ONE SITE
COMING SOON ?

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:17 am

vinnievincent dot ???

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 6:20 am

Wouldn't that be nice?

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:11 am

erg2 wrote:Wouldn't that be nice?

Ummm...what? The truth is out there. Nothing is cooler than a puppy dog with an attitude.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 8:40 am

Streetbeat wrote:vinnievincentboxsetscam.com

THE TRUTH COMES TO LIGHT
ALL THE LETTERS
ALL THE RECEIPTS
EVERYTHING IN JUST ONE SITE
COMING SOON ?

I have seen a money order. It's good that people have their receipts. Like I said, the fans should try presenting proof of purchases. It won't do any good to paste it on a website. He may never see it.

Send him copies.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 2:25 pm

He ignores his mail.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Thu Aug 09, 2012 4:58 pm

Posting here is better than sending. He is the number 1 lurker on this board . He is here hours per day every day.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:08 am

I have contacted. First few times I got the "be patient, he's a perfectionist" letters and after a while...nothing.

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:40 am

KMA, ask Uncle Kev(slayer) to tell his story again, you'll see that it has nothing to do with poor planning..................

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:42 am

Yes nothing to do with poor planning, just plain old fashioned scam.

1031 · Post by **1031** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 7:44 am

Lets get real... there were not thousands of these box sets to track or separate in to a unearned revenue account. I doubt if the prepay orders even made it past three hundred or so, world wide this is why it fell apart, there was no real demand. He banked on thousands to sell, the orders were very few so he never even had enough cash for a minimum run and more than likely never even got a proof set on the box printing. His broke ass had no cash to ever do a box set. And printing and repro houses could care less who you are they have min order payment up front before one bit of prepress is done let alone a printed box cut run for Q.A. .

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:34 am

Well if he didn't get enough pre-sales return the money.
Kev thinks it was in the thousands not hundreds if i remember.
Also don't forget he had a 1000 limited run of the ep which sold out. Then , maybe a little tricky he re-released the sane ep under the name euphoria with exact same track listing and art work with another limited run of 1000 (if that sold out would the next one be called 'full shred')? Anyway he will have had enough cash from pre-sales however big or small plus the two versions of the euphoria ep to either put out the box set or refund. He did neither and got mad with fans that pestered him for the music or refund.
So for me its a clear cut fraud.

1031 · Post by **1031** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 8:41 am

Oh yes fraud all the way, even if it was only two people that paid and never got anything. I am just skeptical on actual prepay sales of the box set.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 1:44 pm

I will still defend Vinnie against you guys. It doesn't pay off. But nobody owes me shit. That's my motto in life.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 2:22 pm

1031 wrote:Lets get real... there were not thousands of these box sets to track or separate in to a unearned revenue account. I doubt if the prepay orders even made it past three hundred or so, world wide this is why it fell apart, there was no real demand. He banked on thousands to sell, the orders were very few so he never even had enough cash for a minimum run and more than likely never even got a proof set on the box printing. His broke ass had no cash to ever do a box set. And printing and repro houses could care less who you are they have min order payment up front before one bit of prepress is done let alone a printed box cut run for Q.A. .

Did I say 1000s? That was Kev. Didn't I use the words "low volume"? How is volume relevent to unearned revenue? Unless you are ASSUMING I am saying the sheer amount of orders overwhelmed a bookkeeper. Not necessarily the motivation. Someone may flake it off. Simply gravitate towards a sales account. Someone may take the view, "what will it hurt if I just save time by not adjusting the account." So, they don't even create it. If Vinnie, himself, wasn't doing the books. I doubt very seriously he had the management know how to overlook the work.

It was a limited edition set. That means there weren't many produced. He didn't have the money to produce them, he couldn't get a bank loan in bankruptcy. He went overboard on the studio costs, too.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:48 pm

Whatever ones personal hypothesis is there were some Archive Boxes made and at least one of the empty Vinnie Vincent Archive Boxes was sold on ebay in the last couple of years and we discussed it and posted pictures either here or on the DoubleV Forum. So if the boxes existed and the music we know exists the only thing that I have never seen actual proof of was the cassettes that contained the archives and the extra items that were to be included in the boxset. I would have been cool with him and stopped slagging him if he had just packed the cassettes in a little square box and mailed them to my wife and I sometime between 1997 and 2012. I just wanted to hear the music and though it wouldn't have been everything that I paid for it would have been what I had wanted most. Think about it, I haven't moved since 1997 so he knows exactly where I'm at and has read what I have written publically about him for 14 years so all he needs to do is pack the 9 duplicated cassettes in a little box and mail them to me. No explanation, no apology nothing else is needed and I WOULD NEVER SLAG HIM AGAIN. It would probably cost him no more than $10 to do right by me but it sadly will never happen. Once again he hates us because he cheated us and no one did him any verbal harm until he cheated them 1st.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 3:50 pm

Right on Slayer.

He prolly had good intentions initially with the boxset but got in over his head and instead of refunding the money he got all pissy and in his usual "the world owes me something" frame of mind, retreated and kept all the income he should've returned.

There should be no defending of Vinnie in this case. Wrong is wrong. Return the money ( I don't care if it was over 15 years ago.)

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:23 pm

Kma, no. He sold well over 1000 euphoria eps, made a lot of kiss expos shows a lot of which he didnt show or do what he was asked for but still got the upfront money all just before the boxset release.
His wife was helping out on this, no one else. It's simple he cheated lots of kiss expo promoters and fans at this time, nothing to do.with bankruptcy or book keeping. Ask the Atlanta, New jersey, uk , swedish and many more .

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 4:33 pm

Also kma vv will aways say limited edition. It's a way of selling it for more money. If he ever gets the unlikely release of gfh it will be a very special limited edition.. that's the way vv thinks, but who's counting? This is also why I mentioned the re-naming of the ep.

Post by **Genebaby** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:45 pm

You can't defend Vinnie's handling of the box set fiasco.

I am glad he advertised cassettes and not CD's, or I would have lost Money too.

Vinnie cries and sues Kiss but forgets his actions against his actual fan base and considers himself the blameless, wronged one in life. Give us a break.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 9:58 pm

Bridges burned by VV

1. virtually all guitar industry
2. virtually all record labels
3. all band members of his own band
4. Kiss
5. most lawyers he has worked with
6. all ex wives
7. All but one Kiss Expo promoters
8. All fans apart from vv angels and very new ones(and some of them too)
9. all previous managers
10. bankruptcy courts.
11. local police
12. a lot of magazine industry.
13. A lot of other musicians

What this means

1. Can not make extra income from Kiss Expos
2. Can not take scraps thrown at him by Kiss or have anyway of making money by working with them again.
3. No chance of pre-sales for his own releases and a lack of trust in selling music direct to fans.
4. no real chance of a record label
5 no real chance of a top producer
6. constant bad publicity until boxset money returned.
7 no one will make his guitars

Basically the only thing I could ever see happening is an itunes release.

Post by **Genebaby** » Fri Aug 10, 2012 10:31 pm

Yeah, ANYBODY, can get on iTunes, hell, my old band is on there.

Unless Vinnie finds a way to piss off Apple too and adds them to the list of the burned. He could do this by trying to say his songs are worth $500 each.

1031 · Post by **1031** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 3:49 am

KissMyAss wrote:
1031 wrote:Lets get real... there were not thousands of these box sets to track or separate in to a unearned revenue account. I doubt if the prepay orders even made it past three hundred or so, world wide this is why it fell apart, there was no real demand. He banked on thousands to sell, the orders were very few so he never even had enough cash for a minimum run and more than likely never even got a proof set on the box printing. His broke ass had no cash to ever do a box set. And printing and repro houses could care less who you are they have min order payment up front before one bit of prepress is done let alone a printed box cut run for Q.A. .
Did I say 1000s? That was Kev. Didn't I use the words "low volume"? How is volume relevent to unearned revenue? Unless you are ASSUMING I am saying the sheer amount of orders overwhelmed a bookkeeper. Not necessarily the motivation. Someone may flake it off. Simply gravitate towards a sales account. Someone may take the view, "what will it hurt if I just save time by not adjusting the account." So, they don't even create it. If Vinnie, himself, wasn't doing the books. I doubt very seriously he had the management know how to overlook the work.

It was a limited edition set. That means there weren't many produced. He didn't have the money to produce them, he couldn't get a bank loan in bankruptcy. He went overboard on the studio costs, too.

I was not even replying directly to you KMA , I was just using the "lets get real " in reference "lets all get real"
I am sure your accounting information is sound, and was not debating that. Just giving my take on the more than likely real scenario, that Vinnie took what ever money put in his own account and no real attempt was made to make these once he figured out interest was to low to get a minimum run done and had no cash to do it up front.... Thats all .

He may have had a local printer do a few mock up boxs, as slayer said some one sold one. I would have to see the box to comment. I would imagine it was never retrieved from the printer due to non payment and some one in the shop grabbed it before it was tossed.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:25 am

I'm not sure what KMA is trying to do; defend Vinnie for the boxset or deride Vinnie for the boxset.

I have worked in the print industry for almost 20 years. If Vinnie was smart, he would've gone to multiple suppliers (ie, printers) and had them all bid on the project, weighed the reputation of the printer with their estimate and chose. (Never pick a printer just based on the lowest price because sometimes the lowest price means they will cut corners and deliver a sub-par product.) Unless Vinnie had some kind of long-standing relationship with the winning printer, he most likely had to pay a substantial deposit that would at least cover the cost of job engineering, file review, proofs, mock-ups, delivery...and mark-up all of that by 22%-25% for profit.

Even if the box never went into final production, at most there were 4 mock-ups generated:
1 first-round glossy box
1 first-round matte box
1 second-round glossy box
1 second-round matte box

1997 times...he was probably in to the printer for about $3500 to $4000. (Although, if he were smart he would've gone with a lo-res cover on a single mock-up to show placement and hi-res paper proofs for color approval...but we all know he doesn't work that way. Probably would've saved $2400.)

Unless Vinnie did not return the boxes after the printer sent them to him for his approval, most likely the winning printer was in possession of the 4 mock-ups. Most likely whomever sold that box was a mid-level employee at the printer that picked it out of the dump bin after their 3,5 or 7 year archive was reached.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 9:32 am

When Vinnie originally introduced the "Vinnie Vincent Archives" it was originally going to be 6 cassettes but as the delays grew he advertised that it was going to be expanded to 9 cassettes for the same price. There was at least one box made and here is proof of that. There are more pictures somewhere of the sale that occurred in the last few years on Ebay.

K

Portillo · Post by **Portillo** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 12:22 pm

doublev2 wrote:Bridges burned by VV
1. virtually all guitar industry
2. virtually all record labels
3. all band members of his own band
4. Kiss
5. most lawyers he has worked with
6. all ex wives
7. All but one Kiss Expo promoters
8. All fans apart from vv angels and very new ones(and some of them too)
9. all previous managers
10. bankruptcy courts.
11. local police
12. a lot of magazine industry.
13. A lot of other musicians

I cant help but laugh at how Vinnie fans sit here talking about some crappy box or catalogue from 15 years ago.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:33 pm

The point is if he couldn't get it out then refund. He didn't. Closed down metaluna and opened metaluma and gtr and then put out speedball jamm ok enough and didnt even offer that for free to boxset buyers.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 4:34 pm

By the way none of these companies are real companies. Tm one holdings also was never a company just a name.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:11 pm

erg2 wrote:I'm not sure what KMA is trying to do; defend Vinnie for the boxset or deride Vinnie for the boxset.

I have worked in the print industry for almost 20 years. If Vinnie was smart, he would've gone to multiple suppliers (ie, printers) and had them all bid on the project, weighed the reputation of the printer with their estimate and chose. (Never pick a printer just based on the lowest price because sometimes the lowest price means they will cut corners and deliver a sub-par product.) Unless Vinnie had some kind of long-standing relationship with the winning printer, he most likely had to pay a substantial deposit that would at least cover the cost of job engineering, file review, proofs, mock-ups, delivery...and mark-up all of that by 22%-25% for profit.

Even if the box never went into final production, at most there were 4 mock-ups generated:
1 first-round glossy box
1 first-round matte box
1 second-round glossy box
1 second-round matte box

1997 times...he was probably in to the printer for about $3500 to $4000. (Although, if he were smart he would've gone with a lo-res cover on a single mock-up to show placement and hi-res paper proofs for color approval...but we all know he doesn't work that way. Probably would've saved $2400.)

Unless Vinnie did not return the boxes after the printer sent them to him for his approval, most likely the winning printer was in possession of the 4 mock-ups. Most likely whomever sold that box was a mid-level employee at the printer that picked it out of the dump bin after their 3,5 or 7 year archive was reached.

Neither. I am being objective. Business isn't about personal feelings. I don't even know Vinnie. I don't feel the need to defend or deride the dude. If I were out to defend someone or tear them down, reality would get compromised.

That's true about getting a bid on the project. He could rely on advice like this from people with experience, but I get the feeling he builds alot of walls that get in the way of effective communication. You can't have experience and knowledge in everything on a project, so communication is pretty important. But considering his income, he shouldn't have planned a project like that.

No way in hell would a bank loan anyone money in bankruptcy. I doubt he had partners investing money in this project. He believed in the project, but belief doesn't pay costs of production. $2400 is alot of dough in his situation. I've also seen a couple designs for the Archives. Using the same design for the cover as the poster would've saved some money, too.

He should've been aiming at finishing the product, not how well his image came out. If there was one box set on ebay, it's true he got a few of them out to customers. He couldn't fund the cost of producing all the box sets. That was a problem. Sometimes, cutting corners is better than not delivering a product and making customers angry. If he could've produced cheaper boxsets and charged less, he may have been able to finish all of them. That was the goal. Delivering a product and pleasing the customer.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:17 pm

Actually business is about feelings, machine like business fail, businesses that try to get one up on customrrs fail. . That's a big mistake.
Also you can not call what vv did a business anyway.
Kma he sold over a thoussnd ep's before this , had many pre orders and made lots on expo showings AND HE HAD ENOUGH MONEY TO PUT OUT SPEEDBALL JAMM .

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:19 pm

If he had problems just return the money don't steel it.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 5:23 pm

Business is about great product, friendly trustworthy people who you want to work with and a goid price for both the seller and purchaser. Back stabbing Crocker business my work if you are selling gasoline but it doesn't in small business.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:09 pm

1031 wrote:
KissMyAss wrote:
1031 wrote:Lets get real... there were not thousands of these box sets to track or separate in to a unearned revenue account. I doubt if the prepay orders even made it past three hundred or so, world wide this is why it fell apart, there was no real demand. He banked on thousands to sell, the orders were very few so he never even had enough cash for a minimum run and more than likely never even got a proof set on the box printing. His broke ass had no cash to ever do a box set. And printing and repro houses could care less who you are they have min order payment up front before one bit of prepress is done let alone a printed box cut run for Q.A. .
Did I say 1000s? That was Kev. Didn't I use the words "low volume"? How is volume relevent to unearned revenue? Unless you are ASSUMING I am saying the sheer amount of orders overwhelmed a bookkeeper. Not necessarily the motivation. Someone may flake it off. Simply gravitate towards a sales account. Someone may take the view, "what will it hurt if I just save time by not adjusting the account." So, they don't even create it. If Vinnie, himself, wasn't doing the books. I doubt very seriously he had the management know how to overlook the work.

It was a limited edition set. That means there weren't many produced. He didn't have the money to produce them, he couldn't get a bank loan in bankruptcy. He went overboard on the studio costs, too.

I was not even replying directly to you KMA , I was just using the "lets get real " in reference "lets all get real"
I am sure your accounting information is sound, and was not debating that. Just giving my take on the more than likely real scenario, that Vinnie took what ever money put in his own account and no real attempt was made to make these once he figured out interest was to low to get a minimum run done and had no cash to do it up front.... Thats all .

He may have had a local printer do a few mock up boxs, as slayer said some one sold one. I would have to see the box to comment. I would imagine it was never retrieved from the printer due to non payment and some one in the shop grabbed it before it was tossed.

doublev2 wrote:Actually business is about feelings, machine like business fail, businesses that try to get one up on customrrs fail. . That's a big mistake.
Also you can not call what vv did a business anyway.
Kma he sold over a thoussnd ep's before this , had many pre orders and made lots on expo showings AND HE HAD ENOUGH MONEY TO PUT OUT SPEEDBALL JAMM .

Didn't I say that the object was to please the customer? Trying to get one up on the customer has nothing to do with feelings. I'm sorry you think honesty is an emotion. Feelings are not morals or ethics.

I hate to inform you, you are wrong. Vinnie Vincent is a feeling type. He is an imaginative, vegetarian, that dresses the way he wants, and likes bright colors. Last time I checked, that described an INFP. A FEELING TYPE.

Sorry to break it to you, but business is systematic. It's a process. You can't put out a good product without good information.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:55 pm

yes and VV didn't have a product and didn't have good information so what are you saying? All I am saying is you are saying VV had a business and I see no evidence of any business.