Vinnie and the KISS contract

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:43 am

doublev2 wrote:Cutting wage in half.. bad hotel... this was a sign that kiss didnt want vinnie. Read the signs.. sorry to say but it seems like they didnt care if he stayed in the band.

Was due to the pointing. Maybe too much pointing? Maybe...ah, I don't know.

Post by **Genebaby** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:56 am

Tommy and Vinnie are chalk and cheese. 1983 Vs Today. Brilliant songwriting Vs so-so songwriting. Not signing a contract Vs signing a contract. Being wild and unreliable Vs dependable and reliable. The money the band was making in 1983 Vs the money the band make today.

Sometimes being wild is great but clearly running a big band with history you like dependable, which Vinnie could have been.

Vinnie helped them play a tour that resembled the stage show, it tanked, but it was a start. Tommy helps Kiss continue today, playing very successful shows to tens of thousands.

Vinnie could have had it all if he'd played the game right, we'd all be winners today.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 8:19 am

Genebaby wrote:Tommy and Vinnie are chalk and cheese. 1983 Vs Today. Brilliant songwriting Vs so-so songwriting. Not signing a contract Vs signing a contract. Being wild and unreliable Vs dependable and reliable. The money the band was making in 1983 Vs the money the band make today.

Of course VInnie only started being a problem, after they went from paying him $2000 a week to $1000 a week and wanting him to sign a contract with that in there along with other things which would have signed his life away. Most likely publishing and other things.

Without Vinnie, Tommy wouldn't even be around. They would have gone under by 1984. Most likely dropped from their label etc.

Then of course, trying to keep Vinnie is his "place" by not letting him have VV signature guitar.

Post by **Genebaby** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:18 am

How can we be sure Vinnie only started being a problem after the salary cut? I am thinking that he should have been a signed member prior to this, ie, before they went out on tour, for insurance purposes etc.

So the argument that it all started after the $$$ cut doesn't seem to hold water as he was already a problem child who wouldn't sign. I would have signed, but I'm no Vinnie so for me it's a great deal. Either way, he dealt with it badly.

The upshot is Kiss needed a guitarist to go on tour with, Vinnie was around and wanted the job badly, but not badly enough to sign up it seems. Kiss did what they had to do so they toured with Vinnie.

It's a bit mind boggling how long he was there for without a contract signed. I guess they did want him at the start, tried to make it work, but then it wasn't worth the effort and hassle, so let him go.

It was the start of crazy guitar playing and there were plenty who could play, not the same as Vinnie, and too bad they couldn't write, but I am guessing that P&G didn't want that so much anymore, at least not to the extent it happened with Vinnie, though the results were stellar.

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:20 am

Brainsaw wrote: Then of course, trying to keep Vinnie is his "place" by not letting him have VV signature guitar.

Is this documented? Interesting if it is true.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:09 am

I never heard it before. If vv was unsigned to kiss i am sure he could do what he wanted and have his signature guitar. But no way would it have been ready while he was touring. I woukd like to know any band that would have offered vv more money than kiss for vv to join... none.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:21 am

Everyone is overlooking the fact that Vinnie had a second chance with the Invasion and that went to shit... so what happened with him and Kiss is a moot point really. If he would've faded into obscurity right after he left Kiss and didn't get that second chance then maybe we could all feel sorry for him.

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 10:44 am

metatron wrote:
Brainsaw wrote: Then of course, trying to keep Vinnie is his "place" by not letting him have VV signature guitar.
Is this documented? Interesting if it is true.

this falls into the category of "whaaaaaaaa u cant have an ego, only me eric and paul. signed: gene"

he was great for the group, eric could keep up. if only he was in the band til about lets say...1990. jesus. we'd have like 7 alive albums and probably 6 more albums. alive 3 shoulda been in 1983.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:23 pm

AceAlive1 wrote:
he was great for the group, eric could keep up. if only he was in the band til about lets say...1990. jesus. we'd have like 7 alive albums and probably 6 more albums. alive 3 shoulda been in 1983.

Thumbs up for this one!

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:31 pm

shramiac wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
he was great for the group, eric could keep up. if only he was in the band til about lets say...1990. jesus. we'd have like 7 alive albums and probably 6 more albums. alive 3 shoulda been in 1983.

Thumbs up for this one!

dare i say the mtv unplugged reunion lineup would not have included ace and peter when they got back together? LOL. cna u imagine gene paul vinnie and....eric singer for the reunion?!

i would have gone

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 3:04 pm

AceAlive1 wrote: LOL. cna u imagine gene paul vinnie and....eric singer for the reunion?! i would have gone

I gotta admit, since Carr can't be there... THIS lineup would rock my world.
The Ankh Warrior, Demon, Starchild and yes... the Hawk!

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:02 pm

Brainsaw wrote:
KissMyAss wrote: Maybe it wasn't fair. $2,000 a week in 1983 was like $4,600 a week by the current dollar rate. VV was getting 8,000 a month by the 1983 dollar rate, and $18,000 a month by the current dollar rate. Gene and Paul may have got the lion's share, but Vinnie was getting good money. He may not have been treated as fair as Paul, but $8,000 a month in 1983 wasn't like getting chained to the wall and whipped.

How many times has this been covered and yet people still keep going to back to but he was getting $2000 a week?! NOT WHEN IT'S CUT IN HALF!

So even if we go by your inflation adjusted monthly rate 8K=$18K. Why didn't you use the cut in half figure? Why aren't you saying how great $9K a month would be today?

Tommy Thayer getting $25K a show and Vinnie getting $9K a month.

That seems "fair" for what they contributed to the band etc.... sure!

Ah. I love a debate. We should get along well

Since $1 in 1983 was worth $2.31 now, you are correct. 2.31x 4,000 is $9240 per month. Only 6% of the population makes over 8k per month!

A 9k per month salary is great by current standards.

It isn't fair that Tommy Thayer is making more. The ticket sales for the LIU tour were lower than expected. It's unfortunate VV was unaware that Gene Simmons is the personality type Titan of money (ENTJ).

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:03 pm

I asure you kiss had no part in vvs decline in kiss or since. I understand vv may have been in reason to leave if he frlt under appreciated but what happened to him has nothing to do with anyone apart from himself and its bull honkey if anyone says different.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:05 pm

Yeah and his creatures sallery twice that for 1/4 full arenas.
He made good. More than he could with any other band inckuding vvi.
Also tommy thayer is a manager as well as player and they trust him 100%. Thats worth a lot to a bsnd like kiss.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Thu Dec 06, 2012 9:15 pm

Also vv said many times after he left kiss in 80s and 90s he loved paul and gene. He said he would always be there for them and he also admitted he made mistakes while in kiss.... so if he was so badly treated why say those things?

Streetbeat · Post by **Streetbeat** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 4:26 am

doublev2 wrote:Also vv said many times after he left kiss in 80s and 90s he loved paul and gene. He said he would always be there for them and he also admitted he made mistakes while in kiss.... so if he was so badly treated why say those things?

he wanted to take part on the reunion tour somehow

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:46 am

KissMyAss wrote: Ah. I love a debate. We should get along well

Since $1 in 1983 was worth $2.31 now, you are correct. 2.31x 4,000 is $9240 per month. Only 6% of the population makes over 8k per month!

A 9k per month salary is great by current standards.

It isn't fair that Tommy Thayer is making more. The ticket sales for the LIU tour were lower than expected. It's unfortunate VV was unaware that Gene Simmons is the personality type Titan of money (ENTJ).

Its not Vinnie's fault, Gene and Paul didn't pay attention to business and made so many bad mistakes.

It's not Vinnie's fault, Gene and Paul spent a fortune flying in all he guitar players they did from all over the US to audition.

It's even more b.s. that Tommy would get paid more than Peter! Or that they would keep lying to Peter about finances and everything else. Even when they are rolling in the money again--they still have to play games, cheat people and lie to them. Who loses out-- the fans.

Again, people can claim he was getting paid too much before-- but I doubt many would stand for having their salary cut in 1/2. You've seen that in today's world. There's been companies that have declared bankruptcy because unions wouldn't take a 10% cut.

If we used the Hostess analogy, Vinnie would have been the one who recreated several new products that people were saying Saved Hostess. The company is back. After years of Sno-ball failures etc--they are back. And then who is he rewarded--we want to cut your salary in 1/2. We want to lock you up for long term at this cheap rate & we want to "buy" your rights to... for a heavily discounted rate. NOW SIGN! And you should thank us and kiss our rings for this. Even though you saved us, you should bow down.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:52 am

Brainsaw its water under the bridge. I said he was in his right to leave. What vv did to his fans is a much bigger issue..please let me know your thoughts on box set and other issues like booting everyone off the dv board.

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:22 am

Bruce and Eric went under the same treatment about the salary,for a year, but then,as promised,they got a rise.It is a matter of the way a person is.

No question that G&P tried and still try to reap the best profit for them at everyone else's expense,fans included..Yet they have been ripped off so many times, and still calim they are so smart.When it comes down to business,in some circles, there's no fair game.

I also think that no matter how Vinnie would have been accomodating, still there would have been problems based on g&P past experience with Ace and Peter.Funnily enough, i think g&P were a much bigger cause ot kiss nearly demise, yet hey still blame the other two.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:46 am

doublev2 wrote: ...bull honkey ...

My FAVORITE new description.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 9:52 am

yeah its all bull honkey

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:41 am

PinkWiz wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote: LOL. cna u imagine gene paul vinnie and....eric singer for the reunion?! i would have gone
I gotta admit, since Carr can't be there... THIS lineup would rock my world.
The Ankh Warrior, Demon, Starchild and yes... the Hawk!

it would have been a far more entertaining concert tour. and honestly, i hate to say it but we might still be at the point we are now with the current line up. just kinda of an alternate 1996 with creatures lineup minus eric carr. although i think eric singer, vinnie,gene and paul might have lasted longer than the reunion tour lineup.

like it or not, kiss needs vinnie even today.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:44 am

AceAlive1 wrote:
like it or not, kiss needs vinnie even today.

We wish.

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:53 am

poserboy71 wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
like it or not, kiss needs vinnie even today.
We wish.

look at the quality after revenge.....kiss cant really write hard rock songs...and its kinda funny that the lead guitar player was always the one saying 'lets go hard rock' and they go "nah, not this time"....and then they pay for it big time.

so heres to you ace and vinnie for trying to give kiss back its balls

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:01 am

dude.. since Revenge how many rock songs has Vinnie written??

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:34 am

doublev2 wrote:dude.. since Revenge how many rock songs has Vinnie written??

how many rock songs have gene and paul written....ever?

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:52 am

AceAlive1 wrote:
how many rock songs have gene and paul written....ever?

I've no real love for KISS anymore (other than nostalgic reasons) but this is one of the silliest statements I've ever seen here!

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:58 am

I HATE!!!

that chicken suit & Eric Singer is a cock sm

ker from waaaaaaay back.
Thank God he never got his own character.

A sandly blond stooge in KISS, absurd!

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 1:20 pm

shramiac wrote:
AceAlive1 wrote:
how many rock songs have gene and paul written....ever?

I've no real love for KISS anymore (other than nostalgic reasons) but this is one of the silliest statements I've ever seen here!

so you're telling me gene and paul had a huge hand in writing creatures and revenge?

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Fri Dec 07, 2012 6:14 pm

To me revenge was a horrible album.
I dont know whst paul wrote or didnt but they wrote a heck of a lot more than vinnie.
I am just making a point that I dont think vv has written anything since revenge so how can we know ifvhe could save kiss again and I believe he is harder to get on with now than in the 80s. If he couldnt save himself how can he save kiss.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:37 pm

ankh wrote: I also think that no matter how Vinnie would have been accomodating, still there would have been problems based on g&P past experience with Ace and Peter.Funnily enough, i think g&P were a much bigger cause ot kiss nearly demise, yet hey still blame the other two.

Very true. I made the same case in the Peter Criss thread for how Gene and Paul killed off KISS.

One of the best comments about Paul being upset with Vinnie happened in Kerrang magazine after Vinnie left. And the writer relates his conversation with Paul about what happened and Paul is complaining that Vinnie tried to turn KISS into "The Vinnie Vincent Band".

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:55 pm

ankh wrote:Bruce and Eric went under the same treatment about the salary,for a year, but then,as promised,they got a rise.It is a matter of the way a person is.

No question that G&P tried and still try to reap the best profit for them at everyone else's expense,fans included..Yet they have been ripped off so many times, and still calim they are so smart.When it comes down to business,in some circles, there's no fair game.

I also think that no matter how Vinnie would have been accomodating, still there would have been problems based on g&P past experience with Ace and Peter.Funnily enough, i think g&P were a much bigger cause ot kiss nearly demise, yet hey still blame the other two.

you hit the nail right on the head.....the sheer amount of people vinnie worked with BEFORE kiss far out weighs the time he had in kiss in the negative comments by gene and paul. i find it hard to believe that vinnie was that hard to work with simply by putting on the makeup but was fine before then just writing and playing on creatures? it doesnt add up. gene and paul lied big time.

and how come we havent heard of anyone whining about vinnie? no one from happy days? dan hartman? cmon man....i've heard how vocal dan hartman was and he wouldnt have took crap from vinnie

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 12:57 pm

Brainsaw wrote:
ankh wrote: I also think that no matter how Vinnie would have been accomodating, still there would have been problems based on g&P past experience with Ace and Peter.Funnily enough, i think g&P were a much bigger cause ot kiss nearly demise, yet hey still blame the other two.
and Paul is complaining that Vinnie tried to turn KISS into "The Vinnie Vincent Band".

i like lick it up better than any other non makeup vinnie line up album.....so paul's writing isnt as good as vinnie's...and i have no issue with it turning into the vinnie vincent band. they lost out big time by cold shouldering vinnie and eric's songs

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:05 pm

The truth is KISS don't NEED, need VV.
Putting the makeup back on, sucked all the wannabe (if they could have been) fans back in.
The REAL fans see through all the bullshit, but that doesn't matter.
Prime example. Sydney Australia. They sold out the first 'Monster' Concert & all the $1500 meets & greets pretty much overnight. Now a 2nd show is selling. Again the meets & greets will all sell out. $1500 to meet Paul, Gene & a couple of tribute-band ring-ins that put on Ace & Peter's make up. Do the fuckwits paying $1500 care that it is not the REAL THING. Apparently not as it sold out.
Right now KISS, could press a cow dung into a CD,& the moronic majority will still purchase it & tell the rest of us how freakin' dicky great it is.
Sadly KISS don't NEED VV. They don't NEED musical integrity or killer chops. The don't need attitude. All they need are a couple of 'YES' men that will do as they are told, so Paul & Gene can run to the finish line will their pockets filled with ca$h & laughing all the way to the bank. KISS isn't about the fans. It's might seem that way, as they are actually giving the 'fans ' what they want . (More like dictating to the fans what the fan will want & the fan ,being a mindless zombie fuck will compile to mediocrity). Like McDonald's fast food. Have you ever noticed it really has not overall taste, nothing outstanding.This is so it doesn't offend anyone. Just like KISS is now. Homogenized Pasteurized
YOU WANTED CRAP, WE'LL GIVE YOU CRAP. THE BEST OF THE CRAPPIEST KISS COVER BANDS IN THE WORLD,,,, KISS!!!

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 1:30 pm

VV should have run his own race & not worried about Paul, Gene & KISS in general.
He could have done so much if he just let go of KISS.
Paul & Gene have NOT been punished by VV.
You Brainsaw, You AceAlive1 & all of us on this forum have been punished by Vinnie Vincent.
By not doing anything, VV has punished you for (the so called) sins of others.
You have been denied new music, new product & any real contact with the Vinnie Vincent.
And we are all trapped in a time wrap.
Honestly, when is the last he did anything substantial?
Not the NAMM thing cause he, by his own hand, did nothing but really fuck that up big time.
I mean REAL.
What 1996? We are now at the end of 2012 & still NOTHING!!!
16 years of NOTHINGNESS.
Remember VV ain't no spring chicken.
There was so much he could have done & he choose to do nothing.
Ultimately he punished himself too.
He flushed himself and his legacy down the toilet.
Unless you guys have a time machine, it's all over for VV.
And even with a Time Machine, you could give him 16 years back
but if he doesn't want to do anything with that time, what's the point.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:55 pm

I think its disgracefull that people say paul and gene can not wtite.
Strutter.. god of thunder... deuce... give me a break. Vinnie had years to build up songs for his kiss days and kiss had less than a year from the elder..The vv v kiss issue is why vv fucked up. He never can be on anyyones side other than his own which is why kiss didnt want him.
. I am sick of hearing vv could write and kiss couldnt. Lots of weak tunes on asg plus ripped off stuff gfh too has fillers. Vinnie can write good tunes and so can kiss. The bangles tune was week too.
Fact .. has vv wriiten anything since 1989 when all demos of gfh were recorded?

If he could write better than paul and gene where are the tunes?

If you guys want to keep saying vv should have been paid more in kiss please do but its dumb and old.
Vv should get over it. He fucked everything up in and after kiss.

Its like I sold some guitars in the 90s for 300 dollars then 10 years later they re sold for 3000. If it was vv that had sold them in the 90s he would think he deserves a good chunk of the new re sale price even though not his.

Portillo · Post by **Portillo** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 8:46 pm

I would have gladly become Gene and Pauls employee.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sat Dec 08, 2012 10:50 pm

ok, i am a little harsh. I know VV is a top song writer but thats not to say Paul and Gene have not written amazing tunes.

Vinnie was great in Kiss and VVI but it just didn't work out and going back over and over saying VV saved Kiss and he deserves more money is mad. He gets royalties. Kiss wanted those in the bankruptcy hearings so they have to be worth something. The reason he doesn't get them or as much is down to what he owes people. Lawyers and Kiss mainly. if he has a problem with royalties he needs to take it up with the record label. But it does him no good just going over the same things over and over.

As for before Kiss there were a few reports of the same sort of stuff that I have posted here.

THE REASON I go on is because this shit is still happening. The only people who defend Vinnie are the ones that have not known him for more than a few months. I am sorry to say. We get Angeles and friends of VV here weekly.. some in disguise, some just in private and some on the board all saying VV is getting worse not better.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:48 am

Brainsaw wrote:
KissMyAss wrote: Ah. I love a debate. We should get along well

Since $1 in 1983 was worth $2.31 now, you are correct. 2.31x 4,000 is $9240 per month. Only 6% of the population makes over 8k per month!

A 9k per month salary is great by current standards.

It isn't fair that Tommy Thayer is making more. The ticket sales for the LIU tour were lower than expected. It's unfortunate VV was unaware that Gene Simmons is the personality type Titan of money (ENTJ).

Its not Vinnie's fault, Gene and Paul didn't pay attention to business and made so many bad mistakes.

It's not Vinnie's fault, Gene and Paul spent a fortune flying in all he guitar players they did from all over the US to audition.

It's even more b.s. that Tommy would get paid more than Peter! Or that they would keep lying to Peter about finances and everything else. Even when they are rolling in the money again--they still have to play games, cheat people and lie to them. Who loses out-- the fans.

Again, people can claim he was getting paid too much before-- but I doubt many would stand for having their salary cut in 1/2. You've seen that in today's world. There's been companies that have declared bankruptcy because unions wouldn't take a 10% cut.

If we used the Hostess analogy, Vinnie would have been the one who recreated several new products that people were saying Saved Hostess. The company is back. After years of Sno-ball failures etc--they are back. And then who is he rewarded--we want to cut your salary in 1/2. We want to lock you up for long term at this cheap rate & we want to "buy" your rights to... for a heavily discounted rate. NOW SIGN! And you should thank us and kiss our rings for this. Even though you saved us, you should bow down.

Vinnie Vincent wasn't getting paid what he deserved, but the show must go on. When ticket sales are slow, it means some belt tightening. The fans lost out when we lost Vin. I felt the same about Ace.

Good analogy. KISS was playing hardball.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:19 am

metatron wrote:The truth is KISS don't NEED, need VV.
Putting the makeup back on, sucked all the wannabe (if they could have been) fans back in.
The REAL fans see through all the bullshit, but that doesn't matter.
Prime example. Sydney Australia. They sold out the first 'Monster' Concert & all the $1500 meets & greets pretty much overnight. Now a 2nd show is selling. Again the meets & greets will all sell out. $1500 to meet Paul, Gene & a couple of tribute-band ring-ins that put on Ace & Peter's make up. Do the fuckwits paying $1500 care that it is not the REAL THING. Apparently not as it sold out.
Right now KISS, could press a cow dung into a CD,& the moronic majority will still purchase it & tell the rest of us how freakin' dicky great it is.
Sadly KISS don't NEED VV. They don't NEED musical integrity or killer chops. The don't need attitude. All they need are a couple of 'YES' men that will do as they are told, so Paul & Gene can run to the finish line will their pockets filled with ca$h & laughing all the way to the bank. KISS isn't about the fans. It's might seem that way, as they are actually giving the 'fans ' what they want . (More like dictating to the fans what the fan will want & the fan ,being a mindless zombie fuck will compile to mediocrity). Like McDonald's fast food. Have you ever noticed it really has not overall taste, nothing outstanding.This is so it doesn't offend anyone. Just like KISS is now. Homogenized Pasteurized
YOU WANTED CRAP, WE'LL GIVE YOU CRAP. THE BEST OF THE CRAPPIEST KISS COVER BANDS IN THE WORLD,,,, KISS!!!

Isn't that the TRUTH

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:32 am

KissMyAss wrote:
Isn't that the TRUTH

This is why VV should have run his own race & not worried about KISS or KISS fans. He could have picked up his own Army of Fans. And he could have still utilized (if he wanted) the KISS type stuff by making appearances at the conventions & all his minions,,,I mean Fans, would have been happy.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:00 am

metatron wrote:
KissMyAss wrote:
Isn't that the TRUTH

This is why VV should have run his own race & not worried about KISS or KISS fans. He could have picked up his own Army of Fans. And he could have still utilized (if he wanted) the KISS type stuff by making appearances at the conventions & all his minions,,,I mean Fans, would have been happy.

We're minions, alright

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:46 pm

"I was the only guitar player in Kiss who was there for both the make-up and for whEm they decided to take it off. I was the only one to see both worlds," he remembers today. "I played about 90 percent of the solos on the Creatures album. I wrote a lot of the songs, and I wrote most of the songs on Lick It Up too. But by the second album with them, I realized that was as far as I was ever going to get with them. They wanted to control me, to keep me down, and basically not to let me have too much attention, not let me be a star. That's just not what I had in mind. I always say: 'If you've got me-fucking use me! But make sure you give me credit, too.'"

For Vinnie the final straw came when Jackson Guitars offered to come out with a new Vinnie Vincent model. Thrilled out of his wits, Vincent brought what he thought was great news to Gene (Simmons) and Paul (Stanley). Their responses horrified him:

"I was so honored to be asked," he says proudly. "The last person they put a guitar out for was Randy Rhoads. They wanted to do a campaign with me. When I told Gene and Paul they said, very bluntly: 'Why should we let you be a star in your own right when that way you can walk out on. us any time you want? Why should we be responsible for making you a star?' I couldn't believe it! I tried to argue. I pointed out that the bigger I get the bigger Kiss would get. The bottom line was that they wouldn't let it happen."

(Metal Nov 1986)

Post by **Genebaby** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:06 pm

So what stopped Vinnie from being this "star" he had in mind after the Invasion split in '88. He would have done better to stay in Kiss, we would have gotten more excellent albums like LIU, if not anything solo, rather than what he's done with his own life and talent.

Any thoughts on that one? Old interviews where the sky was the limit are one thing, but this is late 2012 and we know that hardly any shit happened for Vinnie, yet he seemed to want to be a big star.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:23 pm

Genebaby wrote:So what stopped Vinnie from being this "star" he had in mind after the Invasion split in '88. He would have done better to stay in Kiss, we would have gotten more excellent albums like LIU, if not anything solo, rather than what he's done with his own life and talent.

Any thoughts on that one?

My thought, he puts the music over the money.

The directive that went out in Feb 1988 was just the start (that was the one about making Mark the focal point of the band. They wanted him to do most of the interviews. They started referring to them as Invasion instead of Vinnie Vincent Invasion).

So, he's already pissed.

And he was furious about what made it on the album. He didn't like the watered down guitars and other things. And he started getting vocal about it. And he started announcing they would re-release it with a different cover and put the guitars back on the way they were intended and other things like that.

Vinnie does not like his music messed with at all. He'll sacrifice money etc for that.

The smartest thing to do back then was just release 2 versions of the same album with the same UPC code (so the sales would both count towards one album). There could have been the commercial version and then the Vinnie Version with over the top solos etc. Would have been great. Alot would have bought both versions.

And we all know the product that was GFH/Guitarmageddon was his strongest work yet. Better than even Invasion but... he's trying to find a new deal because he knows Enigma is going under and ....

and by 1992 -- not the greatest time to start putting out metal.

I wish he had been signed to CMC in 96 or 97 and the album could have come out.

But you've gotta give him props for not sacrificing his music for the prospect of far more $$$$.

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:37 pm

Brainsaw wrote:
For Vinnie the final straw came when Jackson Guitars offered to come out with a new Vinnie Vincent model. Thrilled out of his wits, Vincent brought what he thought was great news to Gene (Simmons) and Paul (Stanley). Their responses horrified him:

"I was so honored to be asked," he says proudly. "The last person they put a guitar out for was Randy Rhoads. They wanted to do a campaign with me. When I told Gene and Paul they said, very bluntly: 'Why should we let you be a star in your own right when that way you can walk out on. us any time you want? Why should we be responsible for making you a star?' I couldn't believe it! I tried to argue. I pointed out that the bigger I get the bigger Kiss would get. The bottom line was that they wouldn't let it happen."

(Metal Nov 1986)

Ok, I'd be more than pissed with that too. I agree with you,,,,,BUT,
What does any of this have to do with kicking all of us off the doublev forum.

1031 · Post by **1031** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:42 pm

If it was all about the music and nothing else,... where the hell is the music? If money was not a concern why the law suites ? theft ? Scam's ?

5minLuvKills · Post by **5minLuvKills** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 3:52 pm

1031 wrote:If it was all about the music and nothing else,... where the hell is the music? If money was not a concern why the law suites ? theft ? Scam's ?

You have to remember you aren't Brainsaw so obviously you don't have all the info he does...you're using that stupid logical understanding of reality

AceAlive1 · Post by **AceAlive1** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:02 pm

Brainsaw wrote:"I was the only guitar player in Kiss who was there for both the make-up and for whEm they decided to take it off. I was the only one to see both worlds," he remembers today. "I played about 90 percent of the solos on the Creatures album. I wrote a lot of the songs, and I wrote most of the songs on Lick It Up too. But by the second album with them, I realized that was as far as I was ever going to get with them. They wanted to control me, to keep me down, and basically not to let me have too much attention, not let me be a star. That's just not what I had in mind. I always say: 'If you've got me-fucking use me! But make sure you give me credit, too.'"

For Vinnie the final straw came when Jackson Guitars offered to come out with a new Vinnie Vincent model. Thrilled out of his wits, Vincent brought what he thought was great news to Gene (Simmons) and Paul (Stanley). Their responses horrified him:

"I was so honored to be asked," he says proudly. "The last person they put a guitar out for was Randy Rhoads. They wanted to do a campaign with me. When I told Gene and Paul they said, very bluntly: 'Why should we let you be a star in your own right when that way you can walk out on. us any time you want? Why should we be responsible for making you a star?' I couldn't believe it! I tried to argue. I pointed out that the bigger I get the bigger Kiss would get. The bottom line was that they wouldn't let it happen."

(Metal Nov 1986)

i just lost a shit load of respect for gene and paul seeing as the people that have been in kiss since him have had multiple endorsements for instruments/amps etc. this is horse pucky.

5minLuvKills · Post by **5minLuvKills** » Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:12 pm

I think in some parallel universe G&P are spin doctors for politicians who dabble in music on the side