The albums and where they stand / Soundscan-RIAA

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:18 pm

http://www.kissfaq.com/forum11/viewtopic.php?t=70181

I don't know if this has been posted before here or not, but regardless its a great read.

Yesterday a poster claimed that the remastered versions of the same album don't count with the RIAA.

Probably the biggest chunk of those 700K+ records Destroyer sold in the Soundscan era were the new remastered version. And of course Destroyer got the 2X platinum not that long ago.

But it also details like the label has to submit the albums and pay the fee for certification. Why KISS's catalogue is so out wack with their "sales claims" and other things.

What Vinnie and some others have claimed is that the label and KISS have kept the sales figures down "officially" to keep from paying out more in royalties to other parties who are owed money.

It only costs $450K or so for an audit. I imagine KISS fans would raise enough to have their whole catalog audited and certified.

Now keep in mind, in the early 90's Soundscan missed a hell of alot of outlets. So they aren't entirely accurate.

Also, someone could download 8 tracks from LIU (or similar) and if they didn't download the whole album, that wouldn't count at all towards album sales.

But as you can also see, several of KISS' albums actually only "sold" a little over 300,000 units and they are GOLD.

It's a great write up and if you haven't read it, I urge you to do so.

1031 · Post by **1031** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:02 pm

The article says nothing about how remastered or re-released are treated.

But lets look at what it does say , Sales/shipping numbers were inflated and Billboard placement was easily and influenced. It also says that a certification can be removed and if a fee is necessary to re certify the status, as is in the case with rerelease because of a different disk number. "you were told this but continued to quote fanzine's as proof VV sold more and popularity was greater"
You used RIAA numbers to make a case of W.A.S.P 's shipped numbers "the same source you said had wrong VV numbers. Notice how your going in a circle using a source you call incorrect to credit you claims and discredit mine? You pick and choose what you want.

And I believe I told you to verify the numbers at Billboard.biz numbers, and yes they use sound scan numbers there.
How do I know all this? Could be I worked for Nielsen for 10 years in data collection methodology and technical quality control, field training and installations or maybe not.

But this I will tell you for sure, I am done chatting with you. You are a BSCVBLAR, and no matter what is presented to you, it will be twisted to fit your reality, Its a waste of time.

5minLuvKills · Post by **5minLuvKills** » Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:24 pm

I didn't even look at the link. How many threads are you gonna create about the same thing? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? When a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound? If one train leaves St. Louis traveling at 85 mph and another leaves Denver traveling at 55 mph which one will get to Las Vegas first? Is any of this shit important?

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:15 am

5minLuvKills wrote:I didn't even look at the link. How many threads are you gonna create about the same thing? How many angels can dance on the head of a pin? When a tree falls in the woods does it make a sound? If one train leaves St. Louis traveling at 85 mph and another leaves Denver traveling at 55 mph which one will get to Las Vegas first? Is any of this shit important?

d=rt. d/r = rt/r
t=d/r
distance from St. Louis to Las Vegas =1600 miles, rate=85mph
1600mi/85=18.82 hrs
distance from Denver to Las Vegas = 752 miles, rate=55mph
752mi/55=13.67hrs

The train from Denver will get to Las Vegas first.

But no, it doesn't REALLY important to me

Problem solving is fun.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:59 am

Brainsaw. Where are you getting the 450K estimate for certification? Why doesn't the record company buy the auditor a new Lamborghini? It's cheaper than that estimate!!!

http://www.riaa.com/goldandplatinum.php ... tification

All certification audits are conducted for a fee. If multiple sales levels are simultaneously certified, only one audit certification fee is charged. Companies requesting their initial certification audit must incur any travel expenses by the RIAA®'s independent auditor. The charge for certifications is $350 for RIAA® member companies. Non-members are charged $450 per certification, which must be pre-paid. Companies will be charged the full audit certification fee for any requests that do not meet the Gold® and Platinum® Program requirements.

A 30-day time limit is set for pending certifications. If a full audit cannot be completed within this time, a charge of $100 will be rendered to member companies and $200 to non-member companies.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Fri Dec 14, 2012 6:09 am

Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:16 am

5minLuvKills wrote:I didn't even look at the link.

Yeah, because why learn something you didn't know. Like all the KISS soundscan numbers. Or Ace,Peter, VVI etc.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:17 am

Sept 20, 1986 issue Billboard

VVI debuts at #129

Poison 8 weeks on the chart 119 Look What The Cat Drug In.

-------

Week Ending Dec 27, 1986

VVI was at #76 15 weeks on chart

Alice Cooper #93 Constrictor 11 weeks

WASP #86 Inside The Electric Circus 8 weeks

Poison #191 Look What The Cat Drug In 22 weeks

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:21 am

The article says nothing about how remastered or re-released are treated.

That pretty much sums it up right there. Pretty much all of the Destroyer cd's sold since 1997 have been the remastered version. Notice he doesn't say Destroyer sold (X) of one and (X) of the remastered version. I

KF: "Destroyer" is KISS' most recent album to have been certified (double platinum, Sept. 2011). Any idea why this particular album would have been certified, and not any others? And could it have anything to do with the fact that Universal will be releasing a "Destroyer" deluxe edition this year?

  PG: I think you just answered your own question! The album has sold 726K copies in the Nielsen SoundScan era, a total topped by just two KISS albums in this 21-year period: "Smashes, Thrashes & Hits" (830K) and "The Very Best Of KISS" (739K). This of course makes "Destroyer" their best-selling studio album of the Nielsen SoundScan era. 

But lets look at what it does say , Sales/shipping numbers were inflated and Billboard placement was easily and influenced.

No, it said some people associated with Casablanca/KISS back in 1977 made that claim that they influenced Billboard.

Sure there was chart manipulation that went on. Hell, its probably easier these days to manipulate the charts if you want to spend the money. Chrysalis was a small label. They didn't have money to burn like the majors.
Sure Casablanca could do that in 1977. This was the same groups shipping 5M copies of the solo albums combined and getting flooded with returns. Shipped platinum-returned multi-platinum.

Also, not only were Vinnie's chart action from Billboard listed, but he was getting even higher numbers in HITS. And acting like Billboard 1977 and 1988 were the same as well is foolish. So for the "fake sales scenario" you claim, they would have had to pay off both at the same time.

It also says that a certification can be removed and if a fee is necessary to re certify the status, as is in the case with rerelease because of a different disk number.

Where's it say that? Maybe KISS will have their solo album platinum certifications removed. Why not cut/paste that section.

"you were told this but continued to quote fanzine's as proof VV sold more and popularity was greater"

Really? Love to see where I did that. I quoted the record label as to sales of Vinnie's album sales. The only place where you could get accurate sales numbers (if they haven't been audited).

I made fun of people quoting fanzines or other outlets in regards to sales. I also made fun of George Sewitt boasting of sales figures that weren't true.

The sales figures I gave for Invasion and All Systems Go came from Chrysalis. The sales for them happened right out of the box for ASG. Not only supported by what ASG did in Billboard but also HITS.

You used RIAA numbers to make a case of W.A.S.P 's shipped numbers "the same source you said had wrong VV numbers.

Why do you keep making up these flat out nonsense?

I never said the RIAA had Vinnie's sales numbers wrong. How could they? Chrysalis never submitted either album for certification. The RIAA can only act after the label applies, submits the fee and provides the figures for the audit.

You made the claim the claim "Inside the Electric Circus" was Gold. I pointed out the RIAA doesn't list it as going gold.

Notice how your going in a circle using a source you call incorrect to credit you claims and discredit mine? You pick and choose what you want

No! I notice you keep going around and around changing the tune after showing you how false you are.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:31 am

erg2 wrote:Don't let facts get in the way of a good argument.

5minLuvKills · Post by **5minLuvKills** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:37 am

Brainsaw wrote:
5minLuvKills wrote:I didn't even look at the link.
Yeah, because why learn something you didn't know. Like all the KISS soundscan numbers. Or Ace,Peter, VVI etc.

No it's because you are acting like a Terrier with a chew toy about this...And I refuse to watch you tear into a new one

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:41 am

KissMyAss wrote:Brainsaw. Where are you getting the 450K estimate for certification? W

From the labels own press releases.... by July 1, ASG had initially shipped 250,000 units. With re-orders after re-orders they were up to 375,000 by July 1.

Since late 1991, we know ASG has done over 26,000. That's actual sold, not shipped. Also doesn't include record club sales etc.

So you are over 400,000 shipped/scanned right there alone.

Now, the thing would be-- did they ship or sell another 100K units from July 1988 till mid 1991 when Soundscan came up? Remember "That Time Of Year" hadn't it and it got reasonable airplay and then "Love Kills" as well.

Keeping in mind, that Slaughter was over 2M units by the time of Soundscan. That album is probably triple platinum by now. But still only certified Double.

More than likely, ASG would have shipped enough in 1988 and if not... certainly after Slaughter exploded and fans went back for the album with Mark and Dana.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:04 pm

Thank you for answering Brainsaw.

What I'm trying to ask is;

Why does it cost $450K for an audit?

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:09 pm

KissMyAss wrote:Thank you for answering Brainsaw.

What I'm trying to ask is;

Why does it cost $450K for an audit?

It's $350 for RIAA member companies / $450 for non-members.

Covers the accounting firms cost etc....

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:15 pm

I had mentioned it somewhere else about how fast Slaughter went gold. I knew that happened in Texas. So Stick It To Ya came out Jan 27, 1990. They get their awards for the gold album on May 4. If it took a week to make the awards and figure 2 weeks for certification or so. Not long after 2 months was "Stick It To Ya" at the 500,000 shipped mark. Which is in large part to the fan base Mark/Dana had from VVI.... and John Sykes mentioned that in Billboard when people acted like Slaugher was an overnight sensation and he pointed out that it was many years in the process.

---

Up the charts without a gig: Slaughter finds success
Chicago, Ill.
Author: Tom Popson
Date: Jun 1, 1990

Just about a month ago-on May 4 in Lubbock, Texas-the members of the hard-rock band Slaughter played their first live show together. It was the opening date on a tour that brings the band, along with Kiss and Faster Pussycat, to the World Music Theatre Sunday-and when Slaughter came off the stage in Lubbock, there was a little ceremony.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:24 pm

I agree... Slaughter was NOT an overnight sensation... just a mediocre and lowest common denominator-appropriate version of the Invasion.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:17 pm

Brainsaw wrote:http://www.kissfaq.com/forum11/viewtopic.php?t=70181

It only costs $450K or so for an audit. I imagine KISS fans would raise enough to have their whole catalog audited and certified.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:23 pm

Brainsaw,
Are you a Slaughter Fan or are you just illustrating Slaughter's success has its foundation in Invasion?

Kev

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:38 pm

Slayer wrote:Brainsaw,
Are you a Slaughter Fan or are you just illustrating Slaughter's success has its foundation in Invasion?

Kev

The latter.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 6:37 am

a record companies press release ... haha. a lie has more truth than a record companies press release.
also poison were built from the unknown.. vvi had a little boost from kiss..

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:37 pm

doublev2 wrote:a record companies press release ... haha. a lie has more truth than a record companies press release.
also poison were built from the unknown.. vvi had a little boost from kiss..

[youtube][/youtube]

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:15 pm

KissMyAss wrote:
doublev2 wrote:a record companies press release ... haha. a lie has more truth than a record companies press release.
also poison were built from the unknown.. vvi had a little boost from kiss..
[youtube][/youtube]

That's funny when applied to KISS. It certainly fits.

Also fit for a huge KISS fan, Garth Brooks had the same problem. But usually the truth gets out...like it did on KISS (shipped gold, returned platinum) and it did on Garth as well (The Chris Gaines fiasco).

Still funny to see people quote sales from ASG or Invasion and those sales figures are based on nothing at all and yet they believe them.

But sales figures backed up by the label....and supported by the trade magazines.....

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:35 pm

Slayer wrote:Brainsaw,
Are you a Slaughter Fan or are you just illustrating Slaughter's success has its foundation in Invasion?

I don't hold it against anyone who is a Slaughter fan. I would have expected most VVI fans to follow the guys there.

No different than KISS fans also being a fan of Vinnie's and supporting him.

But to answer your question (which is backed up by John Sykes = Chrysalis President after EMI) explained to Billboard .... they weren't an overnight sensation. They were years in the making.

Part of that was the large fan base they had from the VINNIE VINCENT INVASION days.

And they had all the media contacts from those days. And alot of the media preferred dealing with Mark, Dana because they knew how to kiss ass better. Mark and Dana got a ton of media coverage during the Invasion days. And they had their album out a little over a year after they parted ways. ``16 months or so after the Invasion broke up, "Stick It To Ya" was in stores.

All during that time, they kept getting interviews etc. While Mark/Dana were all over the mags in those 16 months, you didn't see Vinnie. The Kerrang article is the first big Vinnie thing talking about GFH after the "breakup".

It was those Vinnie fans who were working the phones everyday getting UP ALL NIGHT played on the radio. They had a great system in place for when they'd announce--the phone lines are now open.

And Slaughter received a GOLD ALBUM for "Stick It To Ya" May 4 Lubbock, TX --the first night of the HITS TOUR. Now when you consider it took time for the audit and then took time to manufacture the award... "Stick It To Ya" had shipped enough in less than 3 months.

That's all thanks to the VVI connection.....

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:39 pm

Look at Circus...July 1990 "Slaughter rises from the ruins of Vinnie Vincent Invasion".

On one hand, you might think that Slaugher had a fairly easy time establishing itself in the highly competitive hard rock realm. After all, singer/band-namesake Mark Slaughter and bassist Dana Strum both made names for themselves with the very high profile VInnie Vincent Invasion.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:55 pm

I agree that Slaughter was IN PROGRESS for WELL OVER TWO YEARS BEFORE THEIR DEBUT.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:12 pm

Interesting that the Newark, O Thursday July 21, 19988 "The Advocate" Entertainer

By Debbie Ridenour. Her review:

Invasion
Vincent's band rocks Newport Music Hall audience.

In it she mentions Vincent included his favorites at the concert, along with the group's MTV video hit "That Time Of Year".

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:18 pm

It is interesting as far as the term MTV video hit.
Could you post that article PLEASE ? I was at this show .

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:00 pm

The Advocate
Entertainer
Newark, O, Thursday July 27, 1988

Invasion
Vincent's band rocks Newport Music Hall audience

By Debbie Ridenour
Advocate Staff Writer

Dressed in a black glittery top with black leather pants, Vincent of the Vinnie Vincent Invasion and former guitarist for KISS, charmed Friday night's audience at Newport Music Hall. Mark Slaughter, the blond heartthrob of the group, provided vocals with Dana Strum on bass and Bobby Rock on drums.

Having worked together since late 1985, band members released their second album, All Systems Go, in May. In a pre-concert interview, Vincent explained, "The album was so titled because one day we were in the studio running through a few songs, and I said to myself, "Well everyone really seems in place and looking our way, All Systems Goo."

Invasion is a blues-based band with a traditional heavy metal sound. Although Vincent is is heart-writing the songs and playing lead guitar-the other members are far from obsolete.

Slaughter was recruited after Vincent heard his tape- but not until after going through quite an ordeal. It seems that Slaughter's girlfriend sent his tape to Vincent but neglected to submit Slaughter's name, address or even a phone number. Vincent knew the artist was special, but he had o way to contact him. As a result, he used a session singer- a friend who mimicked Slaughter's voice on the tape as best he could.

With the first album completed and the tour about to begin, Slaughtered became concerned. He decided to send Vincent a second tape. This one had his name, address and telephone number with it and Vincent called Slaughter right away.

"When Vinnie called", Slaughter said, "at first I didn't believe it was him. Then I thought he was mad at me. Then I thought I was going to have a heart attack. It wasn't until later in our conversation that I realized Vinnie wanted me! We were both so excited."

That day was a turning point in Slaughter's life . He stopped seeing his girlfriend and learned a very valuable lesson. If you want something done right, do it yourself.

Being a celebrity is nothing new to Strum. He has produced several concerts including Ozzy Osbourne's concert in Japan for MTV, and is one of the guitar greats.

Rock was selected after several months of auditioning drummers. He attended the prestigious Berklee School of Music and was trained in funk, fusion, big band, Latin and rock.

Vincent was born in Connecticut in 1956 and has two sisters. He was exposed to all types of music during his formative years.

"My parents had a country-western band, so musicians were around our house frequently," he said. "I like everything from classical to jazz to The Beatles. My goal with music is to write what comes from my soul and to make music that means something to people. I am in music because I love it, not for the money like so many others."

Vincent's favorites from the album are hard to pinpoint, "All of them have a different emotional quality", he said, but "Ashes to Ashes" and "Naughty Naughty rank high on my list."

Vincent included his favorites at the concert, along with the groups MTV video hit, "That Time Of Year".

The band will release "Love Kills" in mid-August, title song for the movie "Nightmare On Elm Street IV".

The opening concert act at Newport was by Saint August, a five-member band recently new to the rock scene.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:01 pm

poserboy71 wrote:It is interesting as far as the term MTV video hit.

Reality from back then trumps memories.... or people who weren't watching Hard 60 everyday etc.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:07 pm

Brainsaw wrote:
Slayer wrote:Brainsaw,
Are you a Slaughter Fan or are you just illustrating Slaughter's success has its foundation in Invasion?

I don't hold it against anyone who is a Slaughter fan. I would have expected most VVI fans to follow the guys there.

No different than KISS fans also being a fan of Vinnie's and supporting him.

But to answer your question (which is backed up by John Sykes = Chrysalis President after EMI) explained to Billboard .... they weren't an overnight sensation. They were years in the making.

Part of that was the large fan base they had from the VINNIE VINCENT INVASION days.

And they had all the media contacts from those days. And alot of the media preferred dealing with Mark, Dana because they knew how to kiss ass better. Mark and Dana got a ton of media coverage during the Invasion days. And they had their album out a little over a year after they parted ways. ``16 months or so after the Invasion broke up, "Stick It To Ya" was in stores.

All during that time, they kept getting interviews etc. While Mark/Dana were all over the mags in those 16 months, you didn't see Vinnie. The Kerrang article is the first big Vinnie thing talking about GFH after the "breakup".

It was those Vinnie fans who were working the phones everyday getting UP ALL NIGHT played on the radio. They had a great system in place for when they'd announce--the phone lines are now open.

And Slaughter received a GOLD ALBUM for "Stick It To Ya" May 4 Lubbock, TX --the first night of the HITS TOUR. Now when you consider it took time for the audit and then took time to manufacture the award... "Stick It To Ya" had shipped enough in less than 3 months.

That's all thanks to the VVI connection.....

Thank you very much for your response Brainsaw!

Kev

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:11 pm

I'm really growing tired of you belittling someone else's reality.

Post by **Genebaby** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:15 pm

Brainsaw wrote:
poserboy71 wrote:It is interesting as far as the term MTV video hit.
Reality from back then trumps memories.... or people who weren't watching Hard 60 everyday etc.

I wouldn't take what someone who reviewed one show for a local paper as gospel.

I remember seeing segments on Entertainment Tonight for Asylum/Crazy Nights about how "successful" KISS still were, and how they were still selling out shows and packing them in.

I was like, hey, that's not quite right. KISS were out there, more power to them, but they didn't really have any hits and the tours were mediocre in success and attendance.

Crazy, crazy nights was a hit in Europe and Forever was their first real bone fide hit in the US in YEARS.

Every album I see contains The Hit Single XXXXX on a sticker on the cover. Doesn't make it true.

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:22 pm

Genebaby wrote:
I wouldn't take what someone who reviewed one show for a local paper as gospel.

I remember seeing segments on Entertainment Tonight for Asylum/Crazy Nights about how "successful" KISS still were, and how they were still selling out shows and packing them in.

I was like, hey, that's not quite right. KISS were out there, more power to them, but they didn't really have any hits and the tours were mediocre in success and attendance.

Crazy, crazy nights was a hit in Europe and Forever was their first real bone fide hit in the US in YEARS.

Every album I see contains The Hit Single XXXXX on a sticker on the cover. Doesn't make it true.

I don't remember the exact wording from those segments 25 years ago, but.... from their reports.... KISS was playing arenas. KISS had hit songs on the album rock charts. You couldn't turn on MTV without having "Tears Are Falling" or "Reason To Live" and some other songs like that shoved down your face. And alot of KISS shows were hit and miss. You could sell out or come close in one city and do poorly in another.

You could say the Dynasty tour was a success. 10K to 15K a night. Huge success. On the other hand, they lost a ton of money on that tour.

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:47 pm

if you read the book "the Eric Carr story" by Greg Prato you could read how Carrie Stevens made Eric listen to the Slaughter album and how he in turn made G&P notice the group and helped them to be one of the two support group for the HITS tour.

Blas Elias"So,if hadn't been have been for Eric hearing the music and digging it,I don't think we would have been nearly as successful as we were"

Mark Slaughter:"Inevitably,Eric carr was the responsible party in that,tha t made it where we actually got that tour".

I suggest the book to every kiss fan and to Vinnie fans too,.It is a great book, from the beginnign to the very sad and cruel end.

Post by **Genebaby** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:23 pm

Brainsaw wrote:
Genebaby wrote:
I wouldn't take what someone who reviewed one show for a local paper as gospel.

I remember seeing segments on Entertainment Tonight for Asylum/Crazy Nights about how "successful" KISS still were, and how they were still selling out shows and packing them in.

I was like, hey, that's not quite right. KISS were out there, more power to them, but they didn't really have any hits and the tours were mediocre in success and attendance.

Crazy, crazy nights was a hit in Europe and Forever was their first real bone fide hit in the US in YEARS.

Every album I see contains The Hit Single XXXXX on a sticker on the cover. Doesn't make it true.

I don't remember the exact wording from those segments 25 years ago, but.... from their reports.... KISS was playing arenas. KISS had hit songs on the album rock charts. You couldn't turn on MTV without having "Tears Are Falling" or "Reason To Live" and some other songs like that shoved down your face. And alot of KISS shows were hit and miss. You could sell out or come close in one city and do poorly in another.

You could say the Dynasty tour was a success. 10K to 15K a night. Huge success. On the other hand, they lost a ton of money on that tour.

KISS were doing OK. Actual "successful" bands from that time period were Motley Crue, Gun n Roses, Whitesnake, Def Leppard. KISS were treading water and touring to survive. I've read CK Lendt's book, it was fantastic.

Dynasty was a successful tour but they lost a lot of money due to their stupid, excessive lifestyles at the time. The tour was still not big and successful enough to support them $$$ wise. Spending a million on Paul's laser eye shooting thing didn't help, but is another example of the excess they were wallowing in. They learnt their lesson.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:00 pm

i remember Eric talking up Slaughter and their drummer Blas. Thanks Ankh.
So Eric did still have some influence. It was a smart move as they were flying even before the tour. They did come on early though. Still light in outside gigs.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:43 am

poserboy71 wrote:I'm really growing tired of you belittling someone else's reality.

That's because he knows nothing of perception as reality, which is a well established psychological and scientific concept. Our different characteristics effect our reality. Actual objective reality is beyond the eyes of the beholder. Thus we all experience personal realities, even Brainsaw. His reality is correct to him, your reality is correct to you, and my reality is correct to me. The reality of the earth, objective reality, is incomprehensible to any living animal.

“Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.” – Albert Einstein

“Everything you see or hear or experience in any way at all is specific to you. You create a universe by perceiving it, so everything in the universe you perceive is specific to you.” – Douglas Adams

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:47 am

[youtube][/youtube]

1031 · Post by **1031** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:24 am

Thats a large collection of magazine articles you have.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:25 am

KissMyAss wrote:
poserboy71 wrote:I'm really growing tired of you belittling someone else's reality.
That's because he knows nothing of perception as reality, which is a well established psychological and scientific concept. Our different characteristics effect our reality. Actual objective reality is beyond the eyes of the beholder. Thus we all experience personal realities, even Brainsaw. His reality is correct to him, your reality is correct to you, and my reality is correct to me. The reality of the earth, objective reality, is incomprehensible to any living animal.

“Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.” – Albert Einstein

“Everything you see or hear or experience in any way at all is specific to you. You create a universe by perceiving it, so everything in the universe you perceive is specific to you.” – Douglas Adams

That's why I enjoy Peter Criss's book. I know people have been slagging it because it is full of dirt and he blames everyone else. He does deplorable things but feels it's because his situation caused him to do it. To me, it's the most honest of all the KISS biographies so far because it's reality. It's PETER CRISS's reality...but it's reality. Gene's books have been PR stunts carefully crafted to make himself look great and re-write history as much as possible in his favor. In Gene's books, he made very few missteps and those he made weren't that bad. Ace's book is a 10,000-foot collection of cobwebs.

1031 · Post by **1031** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:31 am

Brainsaw wrote:
poserboy71 wrote:It is interesting as far as the term MTV video hit.
Reality from back then trumps memories.... or people who weren't watching Hard 60 everyday etc.

But isn't this a memory, you have of watching a show from 25 years ago?

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:47 am

ankh wrote:if you read the book "the Eric Carr story" by Greg Prato you could read how Carrie Stevens made Eric listen to the Slaughter album and how he in turn made G&P notice the group and helped them to be one of the two support group for the HITS tour.

I suggest the book to every kiss fan and to Vinnie fans too,.It is a great book, from the beginnign to the very sad and cruel end.

I hadn't seen it before. But after scanning through it, people should follow Peter Criss' book up with "The Eric Carr" story.

If you read those two books and then listen to what Ace has said as well, you'll really get an idea of how bad Vinnie had it. Although, he fought back and would stand up to them much more. Peter, Ace, Eric all escaped into the bottle.

And yes, just like I had said, they got the tour offer before the albums release and yes, they received their gold albums on May 4. Which means--the album was submitted around early to mid-April so.... that album shipped enough to be certified GOLD in less than 3 months time.

THANK YOU VINNIE VINCENT INVASION.... because without them....you wouldn't have seen it fly off the shelves.

----

Eric heard the Stick It to Ya record prior to the release, went to Gene and Paul and said, "You're not going to believe this. The guys from Vinnie Vincent Invasion put out a real smoking record here." And Eric Carr was the responsible party for taking it to Gene. As they were putting the tour together, they said, "Yeah, let's put them on." Inevitably, Eric Carr was the responsible party in that, that made it to where we actually got that tour. Our very first tour was with Kiss, and the very first show we did was in Lubbock, Texas, on May 4, 1990. When we came off the stage, in front of 11,000 people, there were gold records waiting in our dressing room. Eric Carr Story

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:03 pm

Who gives a shit. Vv was damn luck to get the kiss gig.
Vv has screwed so many people since kiss including fans. Boo hoo. Boo hoo.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:55 pm

Brainsaw wrote:
ankh wrote:THANK YOU VINNIE VINCENT INVASION.... because without them....you wouldn't have seen it fly off the shelves

Bullshit. You are compromising your integrity with an invalid inaccuracy, concocted by ambitious marketers 24 years ago. In no manner does your point increase Vinnie Vincent's popularity, or promote his music. Move on to another debate. The possibility of the VVI making Slaughter a household name is a false cause and moot.

I suggest the possibility of Vinnie making you tube videos to promote his music?

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:32 pm

KissMyAss wrote:
Bullshit. You are compromising your integrity with an invalid inaccuracy, concocted by ambitious marketers 24 years ago. In no manner does your point increase Vinnie Vincent's popularity, or promote his music. Move on to another debate. The possibility of the VVI making Slaughter a household name is a false cause and moot.

Source please! Legitimate source to back up your innacurate claims. You have nothing legitimate. Until you do, move on to another subject and accept the actual facts which are backed up by multiple sources.

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Brainsaw wrote:
KissMyAss wrote:
Bullshit. You are compromising your integrity with an invalid inaccuracy, concocted by ambitious marketers 24 years ago. In no manner does your point increase Vinnie Vincent's popularity, or promote his music. Move on to another debate. The possibility of the VVI making Slaughter a household name is a false cause and moot.

Source please! Legitimate source to back up your innacurate claims. You have nothing legitimate. Until you do, move on to another subject and accept the actual facts which are backed up by multiple sources.

I've already moved on... I'm not the jackass whisperer

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Tue Dec 18, 2012 7:38 pm

KissMyAss wrote:
Brainsaw wrote:
KissMyAss wrote:
Bullshit. You are compromising your integrity with an invalid inaccuracy, concocted by ambitious marketers 24 years ago. In no manner does your point increase Vinnie Vincent's popularity, or promote his music. Move on to another debate. The possibility of the VVI making Slaughter a household name is a false cause and moot.

Source please! Legitimate source to back up your innacurate claims. You have nothing legitimate. Until you do, move on to another subject and accept the actual facts which are backed up by multiple sources.
Tiresome

Brainsaw · Post by **Brainsaw** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:46 am

Yes, it is tiresome to see people still whining about this. Facts are facts...

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:58 pm

Who is whining?

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:36 am

Brainsaw wrote:Yes, it is tiresome to see people still whining about this. Facts are facts...

I'd like to see YOUR legitimate facts, douchebag mcjagoff. Don't quote press releases from Chrysalis. That's called "marketing". That's like listening to Gene Simmons say how KISS is the biggest "X" or best selling "Y" only to find out it's in some kind of weird, obscure category during one year. Don't quote heavy metal magazines unless they reference with footnotes the actual statistical information from the source.

Everyone listen. This shitbag thinks he has done "research" and has the "facts" because he has done an internet search and has some magazines. He has also decided that other internet sources such as Wikipedia and networth sites are illegitimate sources of data...which he may or may not be correct. Where this shit-streaked piece of underwear gets confused is that, unless you go to the source and hold the documentation in your hands then the research you have done is second-hand and complete ASS. And by the transitive property, this guy is complete ASS.

He...is...a...jagoff.