Thoughts on Odyssey and The Elder in general

[5minLuvKills]

OK this may be the most discussed Kiss album in history so I realize I'm not winning any points for originality but I was listening to the album yesterday and this time in particular I keyed in on Odyssey. When I first heard this album (granted this would have been when I was 13 or so in '87-88) this was the song that I thought was the best example of what was wrong with that album (this was back when I was a total Gene fanboy and my opinions were basically parroted regurgitation of what he had said...if Gene didn't like the Elder, then I didn't either). All the over the top orchestration some of their most pretentious lyrics (although I know Kiss didn't write it)...to my 13 year old self it was the most laughable song on the album. As time has gone on I have since changed my mind...love the album and the song (although its never been my faovite song on the album).

The music in Odyssey is some of the best they have released...well maybe that's too bold a statement, what I mean is musically it is finely crafted and I have always enjoyed the music in Odyssey (after my initial knee-jerk reaction, that wasn't really my opinion at all). But there has always been something a bit off about the song and I think I finally put my finger on what it is...

It's the vocals. Granted the lyrics have always been silly (here's a couple great one-liners to remind you: In that enchanted place....Stand the stallion and the mare... ) but really what's makes them funny is the vocals...is it the melody itself? or is it the singer who sings it? (Paul). I don't think this song suits Paul's vocal range/tone. I would have much rather heard Gene sing it. Better yet Eric...but we all know that would have never happened given the enormous egos that G&P have.

[AceAlive1]

if the movie would have been made, we wouldnt be talking about how crazy the lyrics are.............see pink floyd's the wall.......

[ankh]

it was cover,here's the original:

[youtube][/youtube]

and here's tony powers comments on kiss:

[youtube][/youtube]

thanks to Timstar and the kissfaq.comfopr his excellent work:

http://www.kissfaq.com/forum11/viewtopi ... 38&t=81755

the kissfaq has made a n excellent in depth work about the record.

[5minLuvKills]

Thanks for the video ankh...I had never heard the original...I definitely like Kiss' version better

if the movie would have been made, we wouldnt be talking about how crazy the lyrics are.............see pink floyd's the wall.......

I think the Wall is pretty cohesive it's one of the most straight forward concept albums around just judging it by the album alone. The movie actually makes it less clear to me...never have liked the movie version, I'm probably in the minority on that. But I'm not judging the Elder on the merits of the story from what I can piece together just listening to the album it a good enough story it doesn't affect me as much as the Wall but there are only a handful of concept album that do (Queensryche - Operation: Mindcrime and Dream Theater - Scenes From a Memory being the only ones I can think of off the top of my head)...I just think the lyrics in the song (and a couple others in The Elder, but not all of them) are goofy...but don't get me wrong I'm not knocking the Elder...it's one of my favorite Kiss albums and I'd love to see it made into a proper film

[Genebaby]

I dig Odyssey ok, I always wondered who Tony Powers was when I was younger and didn't know it was technically a cover. I figured it was written for The Elder.

[AceAlive1]

Thanks for the video ankh...I had never heard the original...I definitely like Kiss' version better

if the movie would have been made, we wouldnt be talking about how crazy the lyrics are.............see pink floyd's the wall.......

I think the Wall is pretty cohesive it's one of the most straight forward concept albums around just judging it by the album alone. The movie actually makes it less clear to me...never have liked the movie version, I'm probably in the minority on that. But I'm not judging the Elder on the merits of the story from what I can piece together just listening to the album it a good enough story it doesn't affect me as much as the Wall but there are only a handful of concept album that do (Queensryche - Operation: Mindcrime and Dream Theater - Scenes From a Memory being the only ones I can think of off the top of my head)...I just think the lyrics in the song (and a couple others in The Elder, but not all of them) are goofy...but don't get me wrong I'm not knocking the Elder...it's one of my favorite Kiss albums and I'd love to see it made into a proper film

here ya go.....


http://www.elderthemovie.com/



and watching the wall all the way thru with no interruption leads me to the fact that its a 2 hour mental break down. PERIOD. there have been people trying to figure out what it means scene by scene for 30 years plus and all for nothing

[Genebaby]

Oh yeah, I love The Wall, it's a brilliant album. Not fussed on the movie.

[mrblitz]

on music from: the elder, it sounds like ace more or less mailed it in, where he was recycling riffs from the mid '70s. it's like there's not a whole lot of 'evolution' to his playing.

overall, this album is kind of 'cheesy', but has its strengths. it was actually the opening bars to 'a world without heroes' which finally drew me in. it was so 'un-kiss-like'. i'm a big fan of 'electronic music' so this was cool.

it was from 'heroes' until the ending where i was thinking, 'yeah this is pretty cool'. from the start up to that point, it seemed kind of, 'meh'. maybe i'll have to listen again sometime.

it's definitely an interesting disc in their 'ography.

[poserboy71]

I just want to hear the album in it's uncut state in order .

[AceAlive1]

on music from: the elder, it sounds like ace more or less mailed it in, where he was recycling riffs from the mid '70s. it's like there's not a whole lot of 'evolution' to his playing.

ezrin trashed all his previous work....so what did u really expect?

[shramiac]

I really like big chunks of it! Loved it as a kid at the time!

[doublev2]

Eric carr said in a 1983 inrerview that they did film some of the movie but no one will ever see it.
I dont know how true it is and who was going to be making it.

[mrblitz]

so, were there a bunch of ace takes that were left on the cutting room floor?

[poserboy71]

so, were there a bunch of ace takes that were left on the cutting room floor?

YES

[GOLD5]

Ace's recorded solos were not used on the Elder. I dont think Kiss was out of the box so much as they were attempting to copy a formula that even the Beatles got tired of by 1969. Rush's Caress of Steel and 2112 were so much better in their story and lyrics even without a movie to go with them. Gene cant sing well enough to do the Michael Buble type songs he wishes he could do, like Wish Upon a Star.. Fans made it clear that they liked the old song catalog style but Kiss kept trying to get pretentious. They made music that changed with the times (first they were like Grand Funk Railroad and they copied New York Dolls visually, then they did disco, then they did this over-orchestrated, coke fueled, pseudo story piece album and then they copied the sound of 80s metal like Van Halen. Pretty much everyone copied Def Leppard too. In the 90s they went all grunge and had black leather coats..) But they always forced their hired axemen to play just like Ace. Imagine how awesome it would have been if Vinnie had been allowed to add solos that were like Invasion fast on Kiss records? One of my fav solos is the one Bruce Kulick did on Forever. He did it while Paul and Gene were out of the studio buying a Led Zeppelin album that they wanted him to copy a solo from..

http://www.classicrockmagazine.com/feat ... ive-album/

[Genebaby]

Gene and Paul did stymie some good creative input over the years.

I like Vinnie's playing in Kiss, it suited well, but after him they felt burned and never gave another guitarist so much space.

[shramiac]

I think Mark was given more freedom then Vinnie to be honest! As great as they are, when I listen to LIU, Vinnie solos sound restrained! And of course VVI proved this!

[Genebaby]

Maybe Mark was restrained too? What is his solo work like?

The one thing they were out to do in the 80's was have a modern sound, so they didn't want anymore Ace solos, so while they were happy to let Mark shred it up, they burned him in that home video where Gene likened his playing to a bumble bee. That was low. He played the way you and Paul wanted him to Gene, so that is all on you buddy.

[doublev2]

Dont forget kiss cut up some of vv's solos and pieced them together without him knowing. I guess this is also what happened with exciter. I think you onluy get the essence of vv from his kiss work but not the real vinnie.
That said kiss have to have some credit for developing vv.

As for elder. . Great album. Would not be critical for trying something different and risky.. I think its a great record but no I dont listen to it.

[thattimeofyear87]

I've always loved the album. And I feel it gets better with age. "A World Without Heroes" might be Gene Simmons' best moment on record. Wonderful vocal performance.

[shramiac]

I've always loved the album. And I feel it gets better with age. "A World Without Heroes" might be Gene Simmons' best moment on record. Wonderful vocal performance.

Really? I thought his best vocal was "Feels like Heaven"!!

No you're are right, Heroes is right up there as Gene's best!