Bob Kulick on Alive 2 and Ace Frehley

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:52 am

I know that I can be a real dick on this subject but I love this interview

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ankh · Post by **ankh** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:06 am

you know, to constantly have a chip on your shoulder after all those years sounds a bit sad,not to mention underlining so much that he won a grammy..........without sayng that he won a grammy as a producer for a a tribute album( i find this ironically fitting:P).......i'm sure he has more chops but to still feel the need to get a rise out of somebody else to give you importance..........

I want also to specify that my opinion has nothing to do with Ace-and i'm still sayng that his concert two years ago was the most unprofessional gig i've ever attended- who i've never considered a great player,technically wise.Technique is not enough..........

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:35 am

Ankh. Are you describing Bob or Vinnie ????

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 8:47 am

what is good for the goose ...........

Post by **Genebaby** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 9:33 am

Man, I was reading a book on Kiss and the sections where Bob was talking about his work on Paul's '78 solo album was pretty harsh. It's like Bob is really bitter he didn't get the gig, and he would have been great for Kiss like Tommy was, but Ace was the magic ingredient.

His playing on Alive 2 was what it was because he was mimicking Ace's style. He was always held back when involved with Kiss.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:29 am

Bob's ego has probably been hurt since '73. Even though Gene has always stated that Bob didnt fit the look and was kinda pudgy back then and thats why they went with Ace, Bob probably felt insecure about his abilities afterwards no matter what kinda success he would get later.

Post by **Genebaby** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 12:48 pm

He kicked ass on The Crimson Idol, love that album.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 4:06 pm

As much as I love his playing, he always comes off as a prick to me. For as humble as Bruce may seem Bob always takes the opportunity to slag someone when he can... the dude is constantly dissing Ace (for taking his spot in '73) and Vinnie (when he suggested Bruce in '82).

Also the guy needs to come outta the closet one day, that would probably help his ego and make him less bitter... life's too short.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:23 pm

I've always wondered why Ace didn't just play on the second side of Alive II. It's known he was physically around. He was succumbing to drink and drugs at that point...but it had been like that since they started the band. (If you read Ace's book, he admits to getting drunk before any live performance or recording situation...so Gene & Paul should've been used to it by then.)

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 5:38 am

erg2 wrote:I've always wondered why Ace didn't just play on the second side of Alive II. It's known he was physically around. He was succumbing to drink and drugs at that point...but it had been like that since they started the band. (If you read Ace's book, he admits to getting drunk before any live performance or recording situation...so Gene & Paul should've been used to it by then.)

Ace was probably always lazy, but it just got worse with success, more access to drugs and getting bored with KISS. Bob's solos on Alive II and Killers are perfect though, so after the fact I'm glad Ace missed those sessions.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:57 am

I think both ace and peter were about to quit. Isn't that why they did the solo albums. It was kind of a last ditch attempt to keep kiss going.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:59 am

I like bobs playing but ace can write a song even if it surprises everyone when he does.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am

yes peter and ace were gonna leave during the phantom of the park filming but were tempted to stay with the solo albums.

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:49 am

contrary to what the group tried to convey, solo albums were part of the deal they got when they renewed the contract with casablanca.

It seems that Ace was in the studio watching tv, so who knows.........Rocket ride was supposed to be for his solo album.And i think for different reasons, the whole group was f*cked up at that point, and somtimes you don't need to be drunk or high to make bad decisions.
Back to Bob,it would have been nice to validate his point of view with a very successful record by one of his bands.........

You know, Vinnie-and for that,Mark too,as far as i know- never badmouthed Ace and his playng.And i'm sure both of them were very much more technically proficient than Bob..............

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 8:04 am

Thanks ankh. So solo albums were contracted.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:53 am

I'm only going to say that though they never enjoyed commercial success Bob Kulick was in several bands that made some incredible music and in my opinion would have or should have been a commercial success had they gotten a break. Skull, Blackthorne and Balance are a few of his excellent projects. I think most would say that Meatloaf and Alice Cooper achieved commercial success and Bob Kulick played in those bands. Listen, I totally get that Ace Frehley is an iconic and loveable character but I cringe when people talk about him being a good songwriter or good guitarist or even the KISS sound. When sober he is capable of writing some very good songs but I've never seen him write a whole album of good songs like others have done. I understand Bob's bitterness at having Ace chosen to play in the band over him when he can play circles around Ace. The best man didn't get the job and the decision was mostly made based on an idealized look that they were after. It's almost like me not hiring an African American Person who is the best qualified for the job because he isn't a white man. It's disgusting when you think about it from a discrimination standpoint. Bob sat back and watched Ace fuck up for 8 or 9 years while Kiss repeatedly solicited his and Dick Wagner's help as ghost guitar players when Ace wasn't fit to play. I like Bob Kulick enjoy having a good time and partying but I would really enjoy just having the money that Ace pissed off on drugs, alcohol and a life of excess. The people in the world that could have benefited from those countless millions flushed down the drain.

Ace has been sober for over 4 years and I have personally seen him play sober and he is still awful. I know it doesn't sound like it but I actually like Ace but he is sadly a disappointment.

Just saying

[youtube][/youtube]

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PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 12:45 pm

Slayer wrote: It's almost like me not hiring an African American Person who is the best qualified for the job because he isn't a white man. It's disgusting when you think about it from a discrimination standpoint.

Odd that you should say that because Gene admitted that KISS did almost hire a black guy before Ace that was really good but passed on him because he "didn't fit the image." He claims the guy totally understood and compared it to the Four Tops or Temptations hiring a white guy.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:48 pm

Slayer wrote:Listen, I totally get that Ace Frehley is an iconic and loveable character but I cringe when people talk about him being a good songwriter or good guitarist or even the KISS sound. When sober he is capable of writing some very good songs but I've never seen him write a whole album of good songs like others have done.

I disagree. I think the ACE FREHLEY KISS SOLO album is one of the absolute best hard rock albums of all time. Not "best KISS album", not "best Ace album"...best hard rock albums of all time.
I think the first FREHLEY'S COMET album is a nice...but unfocused...effort.
SECOND SIGHTING blows.
I think TROUBLE WALKIN' really rocks. If not for 2-3 clunkers it would rank higher than REVENGE in my opinion.
ANOMALY feels a lot the first FREHLEY'S COMET album. Nice, but unfocused.

But Ace's solo efforts are better than Gene's solo efforts. They are better than Paul's solo efforts. They are better than Peter's solo efforts. They are better than Mark St. John's solo efforts. They are better than Bruce Kulick's solo efforts. (But not his work in UNION.) They are better than Eric Singer's solo efforts.

The only ex-member that has better solo material than Ace is Vinnie.

Slayer wrote:Ace has been sober for over 4 years and I have personally seen him play sober and he is still awful. I know it doesn't sound like it but I actually like Ace but he is sadly a disappointment.

I haven't seen him live outside of KISS, but I will agree that his playing since the mid-90's has been hit and miss...mostly miss. And if he considers it his "new style" or "where he has progressed", then I'd rather he backslide to how he played in the 70's.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 2:48 pm

PinkWiz wrote:
Slayer wrote: It's almost like me not hiring an African American Person who is the best qualified for the job because he isn't a white man. It's disgusting when you think about it from a discrimination standpoint.
Odd that you should say that because Gene admitted that KISS did almost hire a black guy before Ace that was really good but passed on him because he "didn't fit the image." He claims the guy totally understood and compared it to the Four Tops or Temptations hiring a white guy.

Wow PW, I never heard that one! It is the same thing really in that you say that he was really good but got passed on because of the way that he looked. (Black) You know folks they must have had a recogning because Vinnie was the best guitar player to ever play in KISS but it could certainly be argued that he didn't fit the look that they were after either especially once the make up was off.

ankh · Post by **ankh** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 6:01 pm

Uncle Kev i understand your point of view,personally i wasn't defending Ace vs Bob.Their career reflects what's the norm in the music biz, and ofetn good musicians don't get enough recognition.I was more talking about Bob attitude about such matters, to slag people off just to get a rise out of them seems to be a bit childish.I knew the band you've mentioned, unfortunately they were lacking the magical ingredient- in some cases, just lack and a good record company- to reach major league.

About Kiss,G&P after Wicked Laster hade a very pragmatic approach to how to form a group, both musically and visually.It was one of the perequisite for the people auditioning, because they had a certain idea in mind.Bob and other people didn't fit, like the black guy.They've done the same with Mark, it was one of the first things they've said to him- he looked the part- even before the audition.Eric Carr had to shave his moustache......on the ad they put in 1982, it was stated "american supergroup looking for a guitarist........long hair, in the 6' feet range........"etc.The late Eric Carr,it seems-judging from an old interview- wasn't so sure about Vinnie at first,because he wasn't tall enough, image wise, it was like breaking the the uniformity of the frontline.

When they were choosing his new name-both for Vinnie and Mark- that was based on building a certain image in every detail.I mean, Mark had to change his hair color, wear leather pants and having his ear pierced........

Bruce has always been quite smart in recognizing how lucky did he get, i've never heard Bob sayng so about the fact that Kiss used him in the studio, instead of one of the thousands studio musicians at the time.He always made it look as he was the saviour of the band,and how often he was held back by G&P
ideas on how he should have played.Even during '89 Paul solo tour.

And as good as Bob is,he never acquainted the status of some ofhis peers as a wonderful guitarist.I've never heard Lukather or Carlton bad mouth other guitarist or underline so much thar they've won a grammy(again, for being the producer of a tribute album.......nothing to do with songwriting).He could have learned a thing or two from Dick wagner and Steve Hunter too

.

It's easy for anybody judge on somebody else from the confort of their own home, but i think Bob could have been more proficient on his social skills

.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:16 pm

I get what you're saying Ankh.
Sure Bob Kulick is a talented guitarist, but Gene & Paul were building a very specific theatrical band, so they needed someone who could not only play but look a certain way. I never once entertained the thought that their decisions were influenced by some kind of bigotry.

Bob has to realize that his relation to KISS has also been a HUGE boon for his career. It's gotten his name in a LOT of magazines, websites and probably got him a lot of session work.

I think that Bob is doing on stage here is what he thinks the people want. He's on stage and people want to hear "dirt". It gets a reaction and gets people talking. I'm sure that Bob has to have a little bit of bitterness that a band he almost made it into reached the absolute pinnacle of success. It's only human.

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:20 pm

Slayer wrote: Vinnie was the best guitar player to ever play in KISS but it could certainly be argued that he didn't fit the look that they were after either especially once the make up was off.

Yes, Vinnie was actually Good looking when the Sgt. Kabukiman makeup came off for LIU.
That's why Gene & Paul kicked him out. Pretty Boy Guitar shredding Vinnie Vs the Gorillas in the the Mist (one with a hair style right out of the Planets of the Apes'
[youtube][/youtube]

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 3:51 am

I think it's hilarious that the Family Jewels show had to hire people to roast Simmons because none of his "friends" would do it, none of his former bandmates would do it, Paul wouldn't do it and none of the comedians were interested. And how do you roast a guy that has already turned himself into a ridiculous caricature anyway?

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:05 am

erg2 wrote:I get what you're saying Ankh.
Sure Bob Kulick is a talented guitarist, but Gene & Paul were building a very specific theatrical band, so they needed someone who could not only play but look a certain way. I never once entertained the thought that their decisions were influenced by some kind of bigotry.

Exactly.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 4:44 am

I believe that Bob has some right to bitch but he should also count his blessings as to what was afforded him from the Kiss machine.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 12:53 pm

I think everyone that has had the scraps dangled in front of them by Gene & Paul have a right to bitch a little...but if you're going to dance with the devil...

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:45 pm

I have really enjoyed the great opinions and ideas associated with this subject. I personally respect everyone's opinions here and this post is living proof that this is not a hate forum but in fact a forum where people can discuss and theorize as adults. Ace got the gig in 1973 and made the most of it. I will even say that he was and is an over achiever. Ace has gotten break after break in life because people love him and his personality and cut him an unbelievable amount of slack for being a fuck up. I totally enjoy and respect Eddie Trunk and he loves Ace. Many of us on this forum have made some mistakes in life and paid the price but Ace has an uncanny ability to avoid paying the price for his fuck ups. That is why a guy like Bob Kulick is bitter. Over and over guitarists have been bitter for being held back by Gene and Paul so that is nothing new. I will say this that the best Kiss Music has been delivered when the guitarist had more creative control.

Here is another item to stir the pot. The best Kiss guitarist list for you all to sink your teeth into:

#1) Vinnie Vincent (An Artist with technique and songwriting ability unparalleled in Kiss)
#2) Mark St. John (Shear technique)
#3) Bob Kulick (Huge experience playing in many different bands - great hand vibrato)
#4) Rick Derringer (A guitar legend)
#5) Dick Wagner (Great at writing guitar harmonies and had a big role in Kiss Destroyer)(Sweet Pain, Great Expectations, Flaming Youth, King of the Nightime World)
#6) Bruce Kulick (Best performances were on Crazy Nights and Carnival of Souls)
#7) Robben Ford
#8) Steve Ferris
#9) Tommy Thayer (Amazing at playing Ace licks better than Ace but has shown little else so far even in Black N Blue)
#10) Paul Stanley (Great song writer over 40 years, wrote guitar melodic harmonies for Detroit Rock City, Psycho Circus and many more)
#11) Ace Frehley ( Best solos where on Strange Ways 1975, Shock Me 1977 and Rocket Ride 1977. Is universally recognized as the most influencial guitar player for enticing people play guitar who has ever lived)

Ok, I know that people are going to have trouble with 9, 10 and 11

Kev

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:46 pm

ankh wrote:Uncle Kev i understand your point of view,personally i wasn't defending Ace vs Bob.Their career reflects what's the norm in the music biz, and ofetn good musicians don't get enough recognition.I was more talking about Bob attitude about such matters, to slag people off just to get a rise out of them seems to be a bit childish.I knew the band you've mentioned, unfortunately they were lacking the magical ingredient- in some cases, just lack and a good record company- to reach major league.

About Kiss,G&P after Wicked Laster hade a very pragmatic approach to how to form a group, both musically and visually.It was one of the perequisite for the people auditioning, because they had a certain idea in mind.Bob and other people didn't fit, like the black guy.They've done the same with Mark, it was one of the first things they've said to him- he looked the part- even before the audition.Eric Carr had to shave his moustache......on the ad they put in 1982, it was stated "american supergroup looking for a guitarist........long hair, in the 6' feet range........"etc.The late Eric Carr,it seems-judging from an old interview- wasn't so sure about Vinnie at first,because he wasn't tall enough, image wise, it was like breaking the the uniformity of the frontline.

When they were choosing his new name-both for Vinnie and Mark- that was based on building a certain image in every detail.I mean, Mark had to change his hair color, wear leather pants and having his ear pierced........

Bruce has always been quite smart in recognizing how lucky did he get, i've never heard Bob sayng so about the fact that Kiss used him in the studio, instead of one of the thousands studio musicians at the time.He always made it look as he was the saviour of the band,and how often he was held back by G&P
ideas on how he should have played.Even during '89 Paul solo tour.

And as good as Bob is,he never acquainted the status of some ofhis peers as a wonderful guitarist.I've never heard Lukather or Carlton bad mouth other guitarist or underline so much thar they've won a grammy(again, for being the producer of a tribute album.......nothing to do with songwriting).He could have learned a thing or two from Dick wagner and Steve Hunter too .

It's easy for anybody judge on somebody else from the confort of their own home, but i think Bob could have been more proficient on his social skills .

This is a great post Anhk!

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 1:48 pm

erg2 wrote:I get what you're saying Ankh.
Sure Bob Kulick is a talented guitarist, but Gene & Paul were building a very specific theatrical band, so they needed someone who could not only play but look a certain way. I never once entertained the thought that their decisions were influenced by some kind of bigotry.

Bob has to realize that his relation to KISS has also been a HUGE boon for his career. It's gotten his name in a LOT of magazines, websites and probably got him a lot of session work.

I think that Bob is doing on stage here is what he thinks the people want. He's on stage and people want to hear "dirt". It gets a reaction and gets people talking. I'm sure that Bob has to have a little bit of bitterness that a band he almost made it into reached the absolute pinnacle of success. It's only human.

This too is a great post full of truths ERG2!

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 10:31 pm

I would not post Ace as the worst guitar player in KISS. I certainly wouldn't put him below Paul.

My list would be of guitarists that were involved in shaping the sound of an album (or albums) and not brought in just to help finish recording. I base my list off a combination of my perceived level of skill AND the ability to write a song:

#1) Vinnie Vincent (overall best player and song-writer)
#2) Bruce Kulick (I think one of the best players in the world but a mediocre songwriter...but getting better.)
#3) Bob Kulick (I think one of the more solid players in the world and mediocre songwriter.)
#4) Ace Frehley (Sloppy player but truly unique style and has written some outstanding songs)
#5) Mark St. John (Technically strong but narrow range and couldn't write a song worth a shit)
#6) Paul Stanley (Above average guitarist but not great and fantastic songwriter)
#7) Tommy Thayer (Above average guitarist but no individual style and who knows if he can write a song)

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Tue Apr 17, 2012 11:58 pm

erg2 wrote:I would not post Ace as the worst guitar player in KISS. I certainly wouldn't put him below Paul.

My list would be of guitarists that were involved in shaping the sound of an album (or albums) and not brought in just to help finish recording. I base my list off a combination of my perceived level of skill AND the ability to write a song:

#1) Vinnie Vincent (overall best player and song-writer)
#2) Bruce Kulick (I think one of the best players in the world but a mediocre songwriter...but getting better.)
#3) Bob Kulick (I think one of the more solid players in the world and mediocre songwriter.)
#4) Ace Frehley (Sloppy player but truly unique style and has written some outstanding songs)
#5) Mark St. John (Technically strong but narrow range and couldn't write a song worth a shit)
#6) Paul Stanley (Above average guitarist but not great and fantastic songwriter)
#7) Tommy Thayer (Above average guitarist but no individual style and who knows if he can write a song)

mmmmh, agree with all that, but I believe Paul Stanley is a great song writer.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 7:39 am

metatron wrote:
erg2 wrote:#6) Paul Stanley (Above average guitarist but not great and fantastic songwriter)

mmmmh, agree with all that, but I believe Paul Stanley is a great song writer.

I guess I didn't write what I meant very clearly. But my meaning was that I think Paul Stanley is an above average guitarist but not one of the greats. He is however IMO a fantastic songwriter and has written/co-written some of the best hard-rock and metal songs of our time.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 8:49 am

That's what I thought you meant.

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:19 pm

I always say that I'm a drummer, so I'm not qualified to rate the skill of a guitarist...but I've never been impressed with Paul as a guitar player. He's been a working guitarist for 40 years, so he can play well but I've never heard him play anything that made me say "Damn!! That guy can PLAY!!!!"

KissMyAss · Post by **KissMyAss** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:20 pm

I love Ace Frehley's sense of humor....great laugh.

poserboy71 · Post by **poserboy71** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:31 pm

erg2 wrote:I always say that I'm a drummer, so I'm not qualified to rate the skill of a guitarist...but I've never been impressed with Paul as a guitar player. He's been a working guitarist for 40 years, so he can play well but I've never heard him play anything that made me say "Damn!! That guy can PLAY!!!!"

These are the two best examples that Paul is a great soloist ----
Hold Me,Touch Me (Think Of Me When We're Apart):
[youtube][/youtube]

AWWH :
[youtube][/youtube]

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 2:43 pm

great examples PB... also sure know something, easy as it seems, under the rose, shandi, cmon and love me... not technical but a great sense of melody and phrasing.

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:34 pm

erg2 wrote:I would not post Ace as the worst guitar player in KISS. I certainly wouldn't put him below Paul.

My list would be of guitarists that were involved in shaping the sound of an album (or albums) and not brought in just to help finish recording. I base my list off a combination of my perceived level of skill AND the ability to write a song:

#1) Vinnie Vincent (overall best player and song-writer)
#2) Bruce Kulick (I think one of the best players in the world but a mediocre songwriter...but getting better.)
#3) Bob Kulick (I think one of the more solid players in the world and mediocre songwriter.)
#4) Ace Frehley (Sloppy player but truly unique style and has written some outstanding songs)
#5) Mark St. John (Technically strong but narrow range and couldn't write a song worth a shit)
#6) Paul Stanley (Above average guitarist but not great and fantastic songwriter)
#7) Tommy Thayer (Above average guitarist but no individual style and who knows if he can write a song)

I dig this list and your insight to back your opinions. I think this is cool because depending on what turns someone on once an artist reaches a certain level it becomes personal preference. Who's better Marty Friedman, Tony MacAlpine, Greg Howe or Yngwie? They are all outstanding but many of us would have a personal preference! Thanks for sharing ERG2

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:39 pm

KissMyAss wrote:I love Ace Frehley's sense of humor....great laugh.

Me too KMA!

People love him and he seems endearing

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:44 pm

poserboy71 wrote:
erg2 wrote:I always say that I'm a drummer, so I'm not qualified to rate the skill of a guitarist...but I've never been impressed with Paul as a guitar player. He's been a working guitarist for 40 years, so he can play well but I've never heard him play anything that made me say "Damn!! That guy can PLAY!!!!"
These are the two best examples that Paul is a great soloist ----
Hold Me,Touch Me (Think Of Me When We're Apart):
[youtube][/youtube]

AWWH :
[youtube][/youtube]

Hold me touch me?

PW just had a multiple orgasm

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Wed Apr 18, 2012 10:22 pm

@Slayer - thanks. That's what I love about this site. We can have discussions about KISS and Vinnie without it descending into a slag war and there hasn't been too many of the people that post just to agitate or cause trouble. And I agree, everybody has their preference in what they like to hear which will of course color one's pick for "who is best".

@PB71 - Paul has written some killer riffs, has performed some very pleasing solos but I still do no think that what I am hearing from him is "technically difficult" to play. Not that something has to be difficult to play in order to be good. In my band LIZARDS FROM AFAR, I was always aiming for the "keep it simple, stupid" approach. 3 minutes, 4/4, a catchy riff and a memorable chorus and you have a song.
So what I'm saying is Paul does nice stuff, but not difficult.

PinkWiz · Post by **PinkWiz** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:17 am

Slayer wrote:
poserboy71 wrote:
erg2 wrote:I always say that I'm a drummer, so I'm not qualified to rate the skill of a guitarist...but I've never been impressed with Paul as a guitar player. He's been a working guitarist for 40 years, so he can play well but I've never heard him play anything that made me say "Damn!! That guy can PLAY!!!!"
These are thgue two best examples that Paul is a great soloist ----
Hold Me,Touch Me (Think Of Me When We're Apart):
[youtube][/youtube]

AWWH :
[youtube][/youtube]

Hold me touch me?

PW just had a multiple orgasm

Excuse me while I clean up...

Slayer · Post by **Slayer** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:53 pm

erg2 wrote:I would not post Ace as the worst guitar player in KISS. I certainly wouldn't put him below Paul.

My list would be of guitarists that were involved in shaping the sound of an album (or albums) and not brought in just to help finish recording. I base my list off a combination of my perceived level of skill AND the ability to write a song:

#1) Vinnie Vincent (overall best player and song-writer)
#2) Bruce Kulick (I think one of the best players in the world but a mediocre songwriter...but getting better.)
#3) Bob Kulick (I think one of the more solid players in the world and mediocre songwriter.)
#4) Ace Frehley (Sloppy player but truly unique style and has written some outstanding songs)
#5) Mark St. John (Technically strong but narrow range and couldn't write a song worth a shit)
#6) Paul Stanley (Above average guitarist but not great and fantastic songwriter)
#7) Tommy Thayer (Above average guitarist but no individual style and who knows if he can write a song)

The attached are some of my favorite Mark St. John songs and I think that some will agree that there is a level of diversity illustrated here

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

[youtube][/youtube]

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:16 pm

I know what you're saying, and without being a guitarist it's hard for me to articulate what I am trying to say, but I'll try.
1) I'll start off by saying that I think Mark was a monster shredder and a talented guitarist
2) His solos, no matter the kind of song, sound similar. Same "phrasing", speed, style. There are no slow parts, fast parts, beginning middle and end...just the shred. Now it's a cool, unique type of shred I've not heard from anyone else but it gets a little tedious when listening to an entire album.
3) He talks about how he plays latin, country and other styles...and he has songs that have those "flavors" tinged but his phrasing and shred overshadow the flavor. Maybe it's a conscious choice to try and establish his own sound. But then again, it gets tedious after 5 or 6 songs.

As an example of having one's own style but not getting tedious, I would point to the first VVI album. Lots of different styles, shredding when it's needed, slower when it's needed. Now a few times he shreds when he probably shouldn't have but it doesn't get tedious.

Another example is Kulick's last album BK3. LOTS of different styles and the solos fit the songs while still having the Bruce feel without getting repetitive or tedious.

shramiac · Post by **shramiac** » Thu Apr 19, 2012 11:05 pm

Shame Mark only had a decent tone on Animalize.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:50 am

Bruce does some amazing work but then some real uninspiring stuff. Most of the solos on hot in the shade were poor. I feel he ends his solos by the text book rather than finding something new , different.or inspiring. Vinnie doesn't have that problem... Bruce had some great solos on asylum and crazy nights though.

doublev2 · Post by **doublev2** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 7:54 am

As for mark being a bad songwriter .. well I think white tiger have some tunes that would have been good enough for kiss. I think the production was what killed them. I don't think he's a great songwriter but maybe better than Bruce .

erg2 · Post by **erg2** » Mon Apr 23, 2012 10:48 pm

doublev2 wrote:Bruce does some amazing work but then some real uninspiring stuff. Most of the solos on hot in the shade were poor. I feel he ends his solos by the text book rather than finding something new , different.or inspiring. Vinnie doesn't have that problem... Bruce had some great solos on asylum and crazy nights though.

Bruce has said in a lot of interviews that HOT IN THE SHADE was poorly recorded...barely more than demos. That he didn't feel like he got enough time to work things out. I personally think the solo for FOREVER is fantastic. But in general I agree. That album is lackluster and a little boring sometimes.

doublev2 wrote:As for mark being a bad songwriter .. well I think white tiger have some tunes that would have been good enough for kiss. I think the production was what killed them. I don't think he's a great songwriter but maybe better than Bruce .

There are a couple of songs I think had potential, but none of them realize that potential. The production is terrible. And the singer...is just not...very good.
Did anyone hear the re-mix of ROCK WARRIORS where they fixed the mix and effects and changed the tempo? Still not a killer track, but surprisingly WAY better than the original.

metatron · Post by **metatron** » Thu Apr 26, 2012 2:06 am

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